# North Korea suspending missile testing and closing nuclear site; Trump the statesman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 20, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829 "2018-04-20T23:09:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1001 "2020-06-14T21:45:18Z")
A few NK analysts are predicting a bold anti-South action is going to take place in the next couple of days - probably tomorrow. NK want to create an inter-Korean crisis in order to secure concessions. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1002 "2020-06-16T10:34:59Z")
…and here it is: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53060620](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53060620) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1003 "2020-06-16T11:42:47Z")
They blew up a building on their own territory? That’s kind of pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1004 "2020-06-16T15:26:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s kind of pathetic. That pretty much sums up the whole last few years, to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1005 "2020-06-16T16:40:33Z")
What’s clear is that US leverage in the region is in a full-on decline, which probably isn’t really a surprise at this point. But more and more, the myth of American power is being exposed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1006 "2020-06-16T16:55:49Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > What’s clear is that US leverage in the region is in a full-on decline, which probably isn’t really a surprise at this point. But more and more, the myth of American power is being exposed. The U.S. still has a great deal of power, in the hands of someone who has a clue how to wield it. But given that Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize basically for not being Dubya, and given that Obama’s successor makes Dubya look like a fucking genius by comparison, it’s going to be a while before other nations - even our allies - know what to expect from us again. And that’s what’s going to limit our power in the upcoming years. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1007 "2020-06-16T17:15:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They blew up a building on their own territory? That’s kind of pathetic. Almost as pathetic as the MAGA Suicide Squad tearing up their absentee ballots this week. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1008 "2020-06-16T18:43:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The U.S. still has a great deal of power, in the hands of someone who has a clue how to wield it. It can’t be just one person though; you need a commitment to stand behind a coherent policy. Even if a president Biden were to come in and have some sort of game plan that involved getting NK to agree to suspending its weapons program in exchange for concessions, it won’t mean much if the Congress can’t agree to support the administration. Consider the example of Bill Clinton’s 1994 agreement with NK, which was undone by the Republican congress in 1995. They didn’t come up with anything better and arguably made the situation even worse. Obama’s foreign policy was largely left to clean up Republican messes. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > But given that Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize basically for not being Dubya, and given that Obama’s successor makes Dubya look like a fucking genius by comparison, it’s going to be a while before other nations - even our allies - know what to expect from us again. And that’s what’s going to limit our power in the upcoming years. American credibility is shot. It’ll be a long time before anyone can truly trust the US again because no matter what we pledge, our partners will always wonder what will happen in the next election. Meanwhile, the world turns, and power never stays in one place. It’s fluid. In relative terms, China’s global power is increasing, and our power is on the wane. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1009 "2020-06-17T11:48:57Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It can’t be just one person though; you need a commitment to stand behind a coherent policy. Even if a president Biden were to come in and have some sort of game plan that involved getting NK to agree to suspending its weapons program in exchange for concessions, it won’t mean much if the Congress can’t agree to support the administration. Consider the example of Bill Clinton’s 1994 agreement with NK, which was undone by the Republican congress in 1995. Cite for that? I mean, Congress can refuse to ratify a treaty. But they can’t undo an executive agreement. They can undermine it to the extent that funding is needed to uphold our end of such an agreement, but that’s pretty much it. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework#:~:text=The%20Agreed%20Framework%20between%20the,DPRK)%20and%20the%20United%20States.): > [@](#): > > The Agreed Framework between the United States of America and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea was signed on October 21, 1994, between North Korea (DPRK) and the United States. The objective of the agreement was the freezing and replacement of North Korea’s indigenous nuclear power plant program with more nuclear proliferation resistant light water reactor power plants, and the step-by-step normalization of relations between the U.S. and the DPRK. Implementation of the agreement was troubled from the start, but its key elements were being implemented until it effectively broke down in 2003. So once again, it comes back to what I said: the world can’t trust us to elect responsible Presidents, and now that they know Dubya wasn’t a one-off, it’s going to be a while before we once again have the power we used to be able to wield as the presumed ‘leader of the Free World’, if indeed we ever again regain that status. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1010 "2020-06-17T13:36:02Z")
Good video on orange man and North Korea [https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1273223932091351040](https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1273223932091351040) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1011 "2020-06-17T14:13:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > American credibility is shot. It’ll be a long time before anyone can truly trust the US again because no matter what we pledge, our partners will always wonder what will happen in the next election. This is key. It used to be that the norms of American politics were such that an agreement negotiated by one president would be paid at least lip service by the next. Trump and the GOP have decided that norms are for suckers and will do what ever they want. That is the long-term damage to American prestige and power. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1012 "2020-06-17T17:53:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Cite for that? I mean, Congress can refuse to ratify a treaty. But they can’t undo an executive agreement. They can undermine it to the extent that funding is needed to uphold our end of such an agreement, but that’s pretty much it. But that’s pretty significant, don’t you think? If the agreement is to fund development of a nuclear power plant in North Korea, and the Republican congress says “Nope. We’re not approving funds for that,” then there’s effectively no agreement. That’s the problem that we’re in: partisanship in this country is so bad that Republicans effectively won’t support a presidential agreement - just because. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > So once again, it comes back to what I said: the world can’t trust us to elect responsible Presidents, and now that they know Dubya wasn’t a one-off, it’s going to be a while before we once again have the power we used to be able to wield as the presumed ‘leader of the Free World’, if indeed we ever again regain that status. That’s definitely a problem, but consider the deeper problem: political dysfunction that extends beyond just the election of a president. Countries outside the US, particularly our industrialized democratic allies, look at our rampant inequality that’s exploding out of control and the impact on our political system and they see all kinds of warning sirens going off. President Obama left a supreme court seat and scores of judicial seats open. Why? Not because he wanted to but because the republican party, despite having unpopular ideas, have perfected the art of ruling as a minority. They represent a minority of voters in elections but they have a majority of the nation’s most powerful offices. This is something that a President Biden alone won’t be able to fix and they know that. If they hammer out a TPP, a new NAFTA, a new climate accord, they will do so without waiting for US “leadership” because they can longer expect it, and that’s because our system is increasingly malfunctioning in ways that are impossible to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1013 "2020-06-17T19:54:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Countries outside the US, particularly our industrialized democratic allies, look at our rampant inequality that’s exploding out of control and the impact on our political system and they see all kinds of warning sirens going off. President Obama left a supreme court seat and scores of judicial seats open. Why? Not because he wanted to but because the republican party, despite having unpopular ideas, have perfected the art of ruling as a minority. They represent a minority of voters in elections but they have a majority of the nation’s most powerful offices. This is something that a President Biden alone won’t be able to fix and they know that. If they hammer out a TPP, a new NAFTA, a new climate accord, they will do so without waiting for US “leadership” because they can longer expect it, and that’s because our system is increasingly malfunctioning in ways that are impossible to ignore. There is a scene in “Independence Day” where the US sends a message to the world about the plan to defeat the aliens, and a British(?) soldier says “it’s about dame time”. It was jingoistic BS, but it still played because people did look to the US for leadership then. No one will be looking to the US for that sort of leadership again (at least not in my lifetime (I’m only sort of old)) - trust takes a long time to rebuild. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1014 "2020-06-17T20:44:24Z")
People are delusional if we think we can remain a global power with the kinds of runaway economics that we have right now. Our central bank’s balance sheet is at once unthinkable levels, as are annual budget deficits and the national debt. It takes money to run a global influence machine and we’re damn delusional if we believe otherwise. But more than money, it takes an appreciation of leadership’s value and what leadership means. In a democracy, that commitment has to be led by democratically-elected leaders, and there has to be awareness of the value of ‘leadership.’. Civic virtue must prevail at some point. Facts, and appreciation of facts and of science, must prevail. Not just among elected leaders, but also among people, who are themselves now increasingly open-minded to authoritarian thoughts and experiments, even if we don’t immediately recognize our behavior as such. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1015 "2020-06-17T20:51:38Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > There is a scene in “Independence Day” where the US sends a message to the world about the plan to defeat the aliens, and a British(?) soldier says “it’s about dame time”. It was jingoistic BS, but it still played because people did look to the US for leadership then. > > No one will be looking to the US for that sort of leadership again (at least not in my lifetime (I’m only sort of old)) - trust takes a long time to rebuild. Not so. No one looked to the USA for leadership in 1916 but by late 1917 and the postwar period the USA was the leader of the free world. Rinse and repeat 1940 and 1941. As bad as Trump is he is nowhere as horrible as Adolf Hitler and it took Germany less than 10 years to be a European leader. Events will determine how quickly the USA recovers. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1016 "2020-06-17T21:43:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Not so. No one looked to the USA for leadership in 1916 but by late 1917 and the postwar period the USA was the leader of the free world. Rinse and repeat 1940 and 1941. Right, a “leader” of the free world that twice waited two or three years and let Europeans do most of the dying before deciding it was in its interest to join the party. I guess some call it ‘leading from behind’ or ‘leading’ by default. > [@madsircool](#): > > As bad as Trump is he is nowhere as horrible as Adolf Hitler and it took Germany less than 10 years to be a European leader. Events will determine how quickly the USA recovers. Wow, that’s something to aspire to: leadership through fascist dictatorship and militarist Keynesianism. :rolleyes: Guess it’s time to dust off that Saving Private Ryan DVD. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1017 "2020-06-17T22:04:22Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Right, a “leader” of the free world that twice waited two or three years and let Europeans do most of the dying before deciding it was in its interest to join the party. I guess some call it ‘leading from behind’ or ‘leading’ by default. > > Wow, that’s something to aspire to: leadership through fascist dictatorship and militarist Keynesianism. :rolleyes: > > Guess it’s time to dust off that Saving Private Ryan DVD. What it means is that the USA is uniquely positioned in the world to lead. We have safe borders, vast economic potential and a stable government. Protip: Germany hasnt been fascist since 1945 nor is it a militarist Keynesian state…whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1018 "2020-06-18T10:37:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > But that’s pretty significant, don’t you think? If the agreement is to fund development of a nuclear power plant in North Korea, and the Republican congress says “Nope. We’re not approving funds for that,” then there’s effectively no agreement. You’ve seen my cite to the contrary. Where’s your cite supporting your claim and contradicting mine? You can yammer all you want, but it doesn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1019 "2020-06-18T10:44:19Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > What it means is that the USA is uniquely positioned in the world to lead. We have safe borders, vast economic potential and a stable government. Two out of three still ain’t bad. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829/1020 "2020-06-18T13:16:56Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You’ve seen my cite to the contrary. Where’s your cite supporting your claim and contradicting mine? > > You can yammer all you want, but it doesn’t mean anything. Here: > **[Why the US’s 1994 deal with North Korea failed – and what Trump can learn...](https://theconversation.com/why-the-uss-1994-deal-with-north-korea-failed-and-what-trump-can-learn-from-it-80578)** > > Kim Jong-il and Bill Clinton looked to have done a deal to curb North Korea’s nuclear weapons programme for good. What went wrong? Here’s an overview of the terms of that agreement: > [@](#): > > By 2003, a US-led consortium would build two light-water nuclear reactors in North Korea to compensate for the loss of nuclear power; > > Until then, the US would supply the north with 500,000 tons per year of heavy fuel; > > The US would lift sanctions, remove North Korea from its list of state sponsors of terrorism, and – perhaps most importantly – normalise the political relationship, which is still subject to the terms of the 1953 Korean War armistice; > > Finally, both sides would provide “formal assurances” against the threat or use of nuclear weapons. Here’s where the breakdown started: > [@](#): > > The light-water reactors were never built. The US-led consortium tasked with constructing them was in severe debt; senators accused Clinton of understating their cost while overstating how much US allies would contribute to funding them. Hawkish Republicans in Congress derided the framework for supposedly rewarding aggressive behaviour. > > Heavy fuel shipments were often delayed. Rust Deming, assistant secretary of state, told Congress that “to be frank, we have in past years not always met the fuel year deadline”. Meanwhile, Robert Gallucci, a diplomat who had negotiated the framework, warned that it could fail unless the US did “what it said it would do, which is to take responsibility for the delivery of the heavy fuel oil”. President Clinton wanted the agreement to work, wanted to be recognized as a foreign policy president like Reagan and Bush. Republicans didn’t want that to happen because of…partisanship. How is that different than today? It’s not. So, point proven, contrary to what you claim, foreign policy requires more than having a reliable president; it requires a stable government, which is what you fail to understand. This is why, according to some, I am hyperbolic and chicken little-ish - because I see what’s happening not as just a momentary blip, but for whta it really and truly is: a profound, fundamental change in the balance of global power. American power is on the wane. Barring the collapse of the CCP (possible but not likely at the moment) and barring a dramatic “come to Jesus” moment in this country in which we collectively have an awakening about the profound, devastating impact that wealth inequality is having on our economics _and_ our political system, this is an irreversible trend - at least in the near term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-suspending-missile-testing-and-closing-nuclear-site-trump-the-statesman/812829.md?page=52)