# North Korea – what to do about it, if anything **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709 "2005-12-30T13:13:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/21 "2005-12-31T03:27:31Z")
Lemur866: Don’t you mean either the Prime Minister or the Governor General of Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/22 "2005-12-31T03:40:36Z")
Yeah, you’re right, Prime Minister, I forgot they speak French up there… ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/23 "2005-12-31T05:57:44Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yeah, I didn’t notice that part. BrainGlutton, how exactly could Kim be a player in the new reunified Korea? I mean, how would he escape jail? Y’know, for the murders, the famines, the brutality, the torture, the secret police, that stuff? > > There might be amnesty for former North Korean officials as part of a reunification deal. But that’s not going to leave Kim as the leader of one party in a new multiparty democracy. Who’s going to vote for him? All the happy starving north korean peasants that he’s tortured and murdered over the years? If he agreed to unification and amnesty he’s going to spend the rest of his life in some secluded place, where his former victims can’t reach him. > > This is a fantasy, it can never happen. This wouldn’t be like the president of Canada agreeing to merge with the US so he can be a small fish in a big pond instead of a big fish in a small pond. North Korea is George Orwell’s 1984 come to life. South Korea might accept amnesty for the torturers and murderers, if that were the price neccesary to make them go away. But they certainly can’t accept those torturers and murderers into their political establishment, not and still be a liberal democracy. > > As for wealth, being absolute dictator of 20 million people is hard to replace, even if those 20 million people are desperately poor. How can you buy the feeling you get when you send your enemy to the firing squad and turn over his wife and daughter to your guards to do with as they will? How can you buy the feeling you get when you totally control the media? How do you buy the feeling of being able to have anyone who criticizes you taken out and shot? How do you buy the feeling of absolute power over the lives of 20 million people? > > Yes, Donald Trump probably lives much more luxuriously that Kim does. Yes, Donald Trump has armies of flunkies and supermodels at his beck and call. But Donald Trump can’t order those flunkies tortured to death when they displease him. Your analysis is right on. Kim is a textbook narcissist, megalomaniac and antisocial thug. True, he’s an ugly, stupid, bumbling pissant who, through dynastic quirk, has people snapping their heels and literally dying to please him. But better to be ruler of a fourth-world basketcase that keeps the world’s superpower edgy, than to go the way of a would-be Gorbachev and risk revolt from his hardcore aides. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/24 "2005-12-31T06:12:09Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > BrainGlutton, how exactly could Kim be a player in the new reunified Korea? I mean, how would he escape jail? How did Augusto Pinochet? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/25 "2005-12-31T08:35:52Z")
Have you looked at North Korea? I pulled it up today on Google Earth. The hills outside of Pyongyang are one huge military installment that is bigger than the city itself. There are missile sites all over the country. The whole place is crawling with tunnels. There is just no easy way to do it, and we arn’t going to do it the hard way unless we really really have to. A little human rights violation here and there is nothing we arn’t prepared to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/26 "2005-12-31T11:10:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There might be amnesty for former North Korean officials as part of a reunification deal. They would not believe it, given what’s happenned to General Pinochet. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/27 "2005-12-31T15:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Your analysis is right on. Kim is a textbook narcissist, megalomaniac and antisocial thug. True, he’s an ugly, stupid, bumbling pissant who, through dynastic quirk, has people snapping their heels and literally dying to please him. He’s not quite as stupid as that. He’s not going to win any Nobel Prizes (unless he pulls an Arafat), but the man’s cunning enough. Some rumors suggest that he had to fight politically for his power after Il Sung died, and did well at it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/28 "2005-12-31T16:14:31Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There might be amnesty for former North Korean officials as part of a reunification deal. But that’s not going to leave Kim as the leader of one party in a new multiparty democracy. Who’s going to vote for him? All those North Koreans for whom the Communist Party is and always has been the only real one. Oh, some will change their allegiance, but many will stick with the Communists out of lifelong habit. A unified democratic Korea where the Communist Party is **not** a major player is inconceivable. There is no post-Communist state in Europe where the old Communist Party has not survived (and, after a fashion, thrived) in some form. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/29 "2005-12-31T18:06:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > All those North Koreans for whom the Communist Party is and always has been the only real one. Oh, some will change their allegiance, but many will stick with the Communists out of lifelong habit. A unified democratic Korea where the Communist Party is **not** a major player is inconceivable. There is no post-Communist state in Europe where the old Communist Party has not survived (and, after a fashion, thrived) in some form. Although, admittedly, in post-Communist countries day-to-day life for the average person was often a lot more comfortable under the Communists. It’'s hard to overemphasise how miserable life is in much of post-Communist Russia right now. There is a lot of nostalgia for times that, while not quite prosperous, wern’t actively bad. But it seems like life can’t really get much worse in NK. Very, very few will look back on the regime with any sort of fondness. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/30 "2005-12-31T18:18:35Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Although, admittedly, in post-Communist countries day-to-day life for the average person was often a lot more comfortable under the Communists. It’'s hard to overemphasise how miserable life is in much of post-Communist Russia right now. There is a lot of nostalgia for times that, while not quite prosperous, wern’t actively bad. But it seems like life can’t really get much worse in NK. Very, very few will look back on the regime with any sort of fondness. There is zero chance that Kim will emerge as some respected statesman. First, because he’s a freaking loon. Second, if that country ever opens up enough for the rest of the world to really see what’s been going on there, Kim is headed for a gallows. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/31 "2006-01-01T17:04:55Z")
Say, what **is** China’s attitude toward NK these days? ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/32 "2006-01-01T17:09:47Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > He’s not quite as stupid as that. He’s not going to win any Nobel Prizes (unless he pulls an Arafat), but the man’s cunning enough. Some rumors suggest that he had to fight politically for his power after Il Sung died, and did well at it. I was suggesting psychopathology, not stupidity or lack of shrewdness. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/33 "2006-01-01T17:18:42Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Although, admittedly, in post-Communist countries day-to-day life for the average person was often a lot more comfortable under the Communists. It’'s hard to overemphasise how miserable life is in much of post-Communist Russia right now. There is a lot of nostalgia for times that, while not quite prosperous, wern’t actively bad. But it seems like life can’t really get much worse in NK. Very, very few will look back on the regime with any sort of fondness. “A lot more comfortable”? “Not quite prosperous”? “Weren’t actively bad”? My dear, you know not of what you speak. Were he alive, Alexander Solzhenitsyn might give a somewhat less charitable appraisal of day-to-day Soviet life, as might an estimated 30 million others who perished in labor camps, purges, progroms and engineered famines–as might tens of millions of former Soviets who lived in squalor and whose comprehension of “misery” is somewhat more robust and less abstract than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/34 "2006-01-01T17:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=Carnac the MagnificentWere he alive, Alexander Solzhenitsyn might give a somewhat less charitable appraisal of day-to-day Soviet life, as might an estimated 30 million others who perished in labor camps, purges, progroms and engineered famines[/QUOTE] [Slight Hijack]Alexander Solzhenitsyn _is_ alive. He’s published as recently as 1998.[/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/35 "2006-01-01T17:31:11Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > “A lot more comfortable”? > “Not quite prosperous”? > “Weren’t actively bad”? > > My dear, you know not of what you speak. Were he alive, Alexander Solzhenitsyn might give a somewhat less charitable appraisal of day-to-day Soviet life, as might an estimated 30 million others who perished in labor camps, purges, progroms and engineered famines–as might tens of millions of former Soviets who lived in squalor and whose comprehension of “misery” is somewhat more robust and less abstract than yours. You are referring to Stalinist times in the USSR, when the vast majority of these crimes against humanity occured. Granted nobody intelligent wants to live in those days but the USSR of the 70s and 80s, perhaps. Sven is not the only person I’ve heard echo this statement about there being some nostaliga for the USSR. Even though there are improvements in modern Russia there is also widespread corruption, mafia influence and poverty which weren’t as bad under communism. [http://www.newint.org/issue366/expected.htm](http://www.newint.org/issue366/expected.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/36 "2006-01-01T17:41:36Z")
Watching documentaries about NK, I’m shocked at the number of “experts” who suggest that an internal coup in Pyongyang could somehow make things better. What these people fail to understand is that as evil and looney and prone to provocation as Kim Jong Il is, everyone else in any position to take over the reigns is probably even crazier and willing to go to war. There used to be moderates in the military, officers who received training in the Soviet Union, but they were all purged in the early 90’s. The military leadership who survived is **very** hardline. These are the people you’ll see in the documentaries threatening SK with nuclear and biological weapons (I’m 100% certain they have chem/bio weapons, and I would bet money that they have at least one nuclear weapon.). In their eyes, NK has nothing to lose in an all out war with SK. In my opinion, as awful as it sounds, if we have any hope of negotiating or otherwise bringing about a peaceful resolution on the Korean peninsula, it’s going to have to be with Kim Jong Il’s cooperation, not over his dead body. If an internal coup _does_ happen, and the new boss is wearing a military uniform instead of a business suit, watch out. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/37 "2006-01-01T18:11:15Z")
Actually, North Korea does have a lot to lose in a war with South Korea. There is a fair amount of tourism now from the South to the North and there is business investment in the North. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/38 "2006-01-01T18:15:55Z")
Oh, yes, they’d lose a lot of food too. The South is into providing humanitarian relief also. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/39 "2006-01-01T18:26:17Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > You are referring to Stalinist times in the USSR, when the vast majority of these crimes against humanity occured. Granted nobody intelligent wants to live in those days but the USSR of the 70s and 80s, perhaps. Sven is not the only person I’ve heard echo this statement about there being some nostaliga for the USSR. Even though there are improvements in modern Russia there is also widespread corruption, mafia influence and poverty which weren’t as bad under communism. > > [http://www.newint.org/issue366/expected.htm](http://www.newint.org/issue366/expected.htm) Furthermore, acknowledging that the standard of living for many Russians has decreased is in no way an endorsement for the old system: the governemnt and economy just now collapsed, from a historical standpoint: it hasn’t even been 20 years. You’d expect things to flounder for a while, and it hasn’t been awhile yet. Think about Reconstruction: we tend to think of that as a flash in the pan after the main event of the civil way, but it was a 12-year period: people that were children at the beginning of it were adults at the end. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709/40 "2006-01-01T21:02:11Z")
I am an avid reader of the [Vladivostok News](http://vn.vladnews.ru/). The first time I brought it up, years ago, I was convinced it was a parody piece. The number of bizarre murders, openly corrupt institutions, random violence and just plain sad situations seemed too much to be real. But after much reading (the archives around 1997 are a lot of fun due to a rather bad translator) I realized it is real, and this is what life is like there. Anyway, pulling it up today I was kind of surprised to see [this](http://vn.vladnews.ru/News/upd23_1.HTM) on the front cover- an article stating that 66% of Russians disapprove of the collapse. They run these stories every once in a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-what-to-do-about-it-if-anything/337709.md?page=3)