# North Korea - Why aren't we focused on helping them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467 "2013-07-14T13:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/41 "2013-07-14T17:13:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Why should I care in the least? They are people I don’t know in a shitty country on the other side of the planet who aren’t a threat to me in any direct way. Because they are people, enslaved and suffering. You wouldn’t mind if slavery was legal again (assuming your race couldn’t be slaves)? You don’t mind the holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/42 "2013-07-14T17:13:27Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > What I meant to say was that the average US person seems to only be focused on the risk to himself, or to other countries, from NK attacks. They are not focused on the population inside NK, for the most part. There are 25 million people in North Korea, total (give or take a few). There 25 million people in _greater metropolitan Seoul alone_. As noted multiple times, the first think the North Koreans are expected to do if war breaks out is attempt to level Seoul. Then there are all the Koreans living along the border (on both sides). Quite a few people are expecting Tokyo to be targeted, possibly with nuclear weapons at this point. That’s another 13 million in the city proper and 35 million in the greater Tokyo area, all of them you are now putting at risk. Then the Chinese will get involved. Then the Americas. As I have asked you _multiple_ times: _how many people are you willing to see die to free North Korea?_ A million? 10 million? 50 million? Do you not understand that if nukes start flying - and remember, ALL parties to such a conflict _will_ have access to nukes - that the death toll from a second Korean War could _equal_ that of WWII in its entirety, possibly even _exceed_ it? Are you ready to trade 50 million lives to free 25 million people? > [@](#): > > The risk for a US citizen to suffer from an attack by NK is tiny, but that is a concern that is generally weighed above saving the enslaved population. There are about 30,000 US troops in South Korea, along with their families, and additionally quite a few civilian Americans living or doing business in South Korea. Almost all of those people are either in Seoul or near the DMZ or in the military and thus would be among the first causalities of an armed conflict. Probably 50,000-80,000 Americans altogether. What was that about US citizens being at “tiny” risk? Some of them are at considerable risk, equal to that of anyone living in either Korea. Or don’t they count? You think their relatives and friends back in the US don’t care about their fate? > [@mr.jp](#): > > I don’t think it’s that simple. Perhaps China (possibly justified) feels that the world would turn against them if they showed themselves as such an unjustified aggressor. Why do you think the world would see them as an “unjustified” aggressor? Frankly, I think the US would be happy for China to take care of the problem, and a lot of the rest of the world would ride on those coattails. Russia would be at the head of the next big voting bloc after that, I don’t think they give enough of a damn to stand in China’s way, particularly if the US is uninterested in doing anything. As long as China stays strictly in _North_ Korea the US is under absolutely no obligation to do anything and has no interest in saving North Korea - which is still in a state of war with the US - from China. > [@](#): > > These two factors could be countered by showing unilateral support for this invasion, and by donating large sums of money for the invasion and subsequent rebuilding of the country. Again, China doesn’t need anyone’s financial help these days. Indeed, it is they who are financially helping everyone else. You also neglect the political fall out from China appearing to do the bidding of the US. No, taking US money to rebuild after invading North Korea would not be in China’s interest. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/43 "2013-07-14T17:14:37Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > What I meant to say was that the average US person seems to only be focused on the risk to himself, or to other countries, from NK attacks. They are not focused on the population inside NK, for the most part. The risk for a US citizen to suffer from an attack by NK is tiny, but that is a concern that is generally weighed above saving the enslaved population. Does this calculating - that the US has little to fear from North Korea – change if we knew that they had a working ICBM missile and nuclear warhead of sufficient range and destructive power to obliterate San Francisco, or a good chunk of downtown LA? If we knew that to be the case, do you still believe we should start a war against North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/44 "2013-07-14T17:15:48Z")
Oh, please. Leave the Holocaust out of this. The North Koreans have to handle their problems on their own. If they don’t like the government, overthrow it. If they can’t, then it sucks to be them. They aren’t chattel slaves by any definition. So get down off your high horse and get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/45 "2013-07-14T17:16:20Z")
Because it would be an exercise in futility. We did send some food aid in the early 1990s when they had an artificial famine, and little, if any, of it went where it needed to go. It all went to the leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/46 "2013-07-14T17:18:08Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Yeesh, what is it with the repeated claims that I should read more. Because you obviously haven’t read any of the reams of material available about North Korea. I’m talking about non-whacko material. I’m talking about legitimate research and legimate news. You clearly have no idea whatsoever what North Korea _is_. Let’s just discuss the arranged assassination fantasy/pipe dream. Who are you going to get to do tha? How are you going to get in contact with that person? How are you going to supply that person? You don’t see any problems here? North Korea is a closed nation. You don’t just casually walk around and hobnob with foreigners. So, how are you going to hae undercover operatives? You can’t just hire someone from South Korea or from a Korean-speaking area of China and ship them into North Korean society. That’s something that’s absolutely impossible to disguise. That’s what’s with telling you to read more. Either that or lay off the fantasy/pipe. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/47 "2013-07-14T17:20:22Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Ok, this is the last of your posts I’m going to answer. I don’t find this kind of debate very plesant. Is that another way of saying you haven’t got a good answer for my questions? > [@](#): > > You are aware of the economic concept of prices? If you have something of value, or are capable of performing some service, another person can pay you a certain price for that good or service. You would then sell this good, or perform this service to the other person. This can happen even if you are not poor. Ah, so you want us to _rent_ the Chinese army, essentially _buying_ a regime change? Is that what you’re saying? That’s what it sounds like to me. Don’t you care about the Chinese who’d die in such an invasion? Nevermind the loss of political face if China rented their army out to the US. > [@mr.jp](#): > > Because they are people, enslaved and suffering. You wouldn’t mind if slavery was legal again (assuming your race couldn’t be slaves)? You don’t mind the holocaust? Someone can be against slavery and suffering without wanting to start a war over it. You don’t seem to realize the potential cost of “freeing” North Korea. The regime will go down fighting. You still haven’t answered my question: how people are you willing to see die to achieve your goal? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/48 "2013-07-14T17:25:52Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Oh, please. Leave the Holocaust out of this. The North Koreans have to handle their problems on their own. If they don’t like the government, overthrow it. If they can’t, then it sucks to be them. They aren’t chattel slaves by any definition. So get down off your high horse and get a grip. What about the Jewish people of Germany, did they have to handle problems on their own? If you don’t want to consider the holocaust, what about the Bosnians during the Bosnian Genocide? The Rwandan genocide? Should we just lean back and not care about any of it, because they are from a different country? What do you think is the fundamental difference between the NK population and chattel slaves? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/49 "2013-07-14T17:34:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Because you obviously haven’t read any of the reams of material available about North Korea. I’m talking about non-whacko material. I’m talking about legitimate research and legimate news. You clearly have no idea whatsoever what North Korea _is_. > > Let’s just discuss the arranged assassination fantasy/pipe dream. Who are you going to get to do tha? How are you going to get in contact with that person? How are you going to supply that person? > > You don’t see any problems here? North Korea is a closed nation. You don’t just casually walk around and hobnob with foreigners. So, how are you going to hae undercover operatives? You can’t just hire someone from South Korea or from a Korean-speaking area of China and ship them into North Korean society. That’s something that’s absolutely impossible to disguise. > > That’s what’s with telling you to read more. Either that or lay off the fantasy/pipe. I do know that there are these problems. You seem to think I am under the impression that one simply walks into the North Korean government. I am not. That I haven’t given up all hope doesn’t entail that I don’t know anything about the world. At least I would like to be optimistic and think that this is the case. What do you think? You think there is no possibly way to topple the current government without starting a war that kills millions? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/50 "2013-07-14T18:06:44Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > We could let them take the country instead. Perhaps they wouldn’t mind an expansion of their empire. Especially if we gave them money to help rebuild it. It would probably also go easier down with the Korean people, if they are taken over by another pseudo-communist country. This is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve seen in years. Look, China’s not “just taking North Korea”. Nobody’s “just taking” over any part of Korea without _Koreans_ actually giving that to them. Those with some actual knowledge of Korea are fully aware of how Koreans, of both Northern and Southern persuasions, feel about non-Koreans merely laying claim to territory Koreans consider to be Korea. China, of course, isn’t all that interested in creating another province with people who have already proven that they can and will fight to not be ruled by someone they don’t want to be ruled by. And you wonder why people tell you to read more. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/51 "2013-07-14T18:17:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve seen in years. Look, China’s not “just taking North Korea”. Nobody’s “just taking” over any part of Korea without _Koreans_ actually giving that to them. Those with some actual knowledge of Korea are fully aware of how Koreans, of both Northern and Southern persuasions, feel about non-Koreans merely laying claim to territory Koreans consider to be Korea. > > China, of course, isn’t all that interested in creating another province with people who have already proven that they can and will fight to not be ruled by someone they don’t want to be ruled by. > > And you wonder why people tell you to read more. :rolleyes: Take obviously means invade. Maybe its more important to try and understand what you read instead of just increasing the amount. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/52 "2013-07-14T18:27:49Z")
Also, having your quotation marks include the word “just” when that word was not contained in my post, is not a good practice. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/53 "2013-07-14T18:30:10Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I do know that there are these problems. Your posts above indicate that you don’t know that. > [@](#): > > You seem to think I am under the impression that one simply walks into the North Korean government. I am not. See, here, that’s the problem. You think it’s just the North Korean govenment that you don’t walk into. It’s North Korea itself and North Korean society that you don’t walk into. Here, let me explain something to you. Local folks, such as office worker, farmers, and truck drivers, simply don’t have access to weapons. Got that? Ah, that’s okay, you say, because there’s the army and they, of course, have access to weapons. Well, not everyone in their army does, in fact, have such access. The North Korean economy hasn’t been so hot at supplying them with food and arms of late. And how are you going to get your undercover operative into the North Korean army in the first place? To get into the Army, one needs good, nay, excellent songbun. That’s not something that’s going to be easy, or even possible, to fake up. Getting into the army is considered primo in North Korea. You know why? Because you have a greater chance, not guarantee mind you, of getting fed on a semi-regular basis. Next on the list of problems is that North Koreans don’t exactly speak the same language as South Koreans, Korean-speaking Chinese citizens, or Korean residents of Japan. Oh, yes, some of the Korean-speaking residents of Japan are pro-North Korean government so I seriously doubt you’re going to get any of that particular group into the plot either. For everyone else, one verbal slip, one wrong gesture, and your plotter is dead. Not just found out, but dead. D. E. A. D. > [@](#): > > That I haven’t given up all hope doesn’t entail that I don’t know anything about the world. At least I would like to be optimistic and think that this is the case. I’m optimistic that the SOB apparently in charge in North Korea (the likely person actually in charge is his father’s sister’s husband) won’t last as long as his father or grandfather. I’m optimistic that at some point China isn’t going to want the minerals they’re getting from North Korea and so will simply quit funnelling money to “Little Fatty/Fatty Kim” as the locals here in China call him. I’m optimistic that South Korea will do all they can to keep the North Koreans from going full-on whacked out and bombing the beejays out of South Korea, Japan, and a few American islands within striking distance. > [@](#): > > What do you think? You think there is no possibly way to topple the current government without starting a war that kills millions? That’s right. Zero. It’s impossible to topple the North Korean regime without those benefitting from that regime realizing that they’re toast after it topples and thus pushing the big button. Heck, just because they thought they weren’t being respected enough by South Korea, they sank a South Korean navy ship! You think that their response to an actual attack will be mild? There’s a huge difference between [optimism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/optimism?s=t) and [fantasy](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fantasy?s=t). Dude. You simply haven’t a clue about North Korea and the countries nearby. Your best course of action here is to nod your head, say, “Wow. I was totally out of my element there; I think I’ll go learn something.” And then go learn something. After you learn something, come back and discuss it. Right now, you’re out of your league and you’re not acting like you’re interested in learning the facts of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/54 "2013-07-14T18:30:56Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Take obviously means invade Why would they want to invade? As **Monty** has noted, nobody wants that benighted shithole. What everybody wants is stability. And China would like that stability without having to exert much effort over it. Invasion would be a major pain and serve no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/55 "2013-07-14T18:31:18Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Also, having your quotation marks include the word “just” when that word was not contained in my post, is not a good practice. You’re ignorant about English too, I see. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/56 "2013-07-14T18:32:04Z")
I am curious where these resources the OP seems to think are so available are coming from. The US needs to stay out of it, we’re in debt to China, not the other way around. We’re in debt to everybody - there is no money to “donate” to anyone, anywhere. Our economy is in the toilet, our credit is in the toilet. Our military is stretched to its limit, some may argue beyond its limit already. The reason our military personnel are serving multiple tours in the Middle East is _because we don’t have enough soldiers_. The US would have to start drafting its citizens again in order to have enough military personnel. Do you really think that would go over very well? The reason to go to war or to deploy an army is to protect our borders and/or our interests beyond our borders. North Korea is not a threat or an interest to the US on any level, that’s why we don’t care. Why I don’t care personally? I’ve got enough problems to worry about right here in my own city in this great country of US Americans and all the fuckuppery that’s already happening here. I don’t think the OP understands how crazy it is in North Korea. The vast majority of citizens there have had it pounded into their heads that America is the greatest enemy and threat to all of humanity that ever existed. They think their tiny country is an oasis of sanctuary and safety from American oppression. If the US showed up and tried a coup, that vast majority would do their damnedest to kill every American on sight. Hence the guerrilla warfare already mentioned. It would not be a military against military war, it would be citizens, including “rescued” women and children, stabbing soldiers in the back. I have no brainspace for giving a shit about a bunch of brainwashed dumbasses on the other side of the world. They love their Great Leader and they can keep him. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/57 "2013-07-14T18:37:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You’re ignorant about English too, I see. You disagree, I guess? So one could just put quotes around anything they choose, as if the other person said it? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/58 "2013-07-14T18:43:35Z")
Here’s something else to consider. Say the North Korean regime does collapse and does so without a war, without a mass exodus, without the concentration camp guards killing every single political prisoner (that would be the entire population of the camps, more than 150,000 people). What’s the next step? Well, reunification is A Very Big Thing in Korea. So, the newly-freed from the Kim regime population now joins the Republic of Korea. You don’t think there’s going to be some sort of tribunal about crimes against humanity in the former NK? Think again! There will be plenty of people, South Koreans whose relatives were massacred by the Kim regime, who want a settling of accounts. It would be political suicide for the South Korean government to not do that. Nope. The NK regime isn’t going down without destroying as much as it can. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/59 "2013-07-14T18:45:36Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > You disagree, I guess? So one could just put quotes around anything they choose, as if the other person said it? It’s called “scare quotes.” [There’s a wikipedia page and everything.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes) > [@](#): > > If scare quotes are enclosing a word or phrase that does not represent a quotation from another source they may simply serve to alert the reader that the word or phrase is used in an unusual, special, or non-standard way or should be understood to include caveats to the conventional meaning.[5] So when **Monty** says that someone may “just take over” North Korea, he is using scare quotes to mock that idea, by indicating that it will be very costly for another country to go to war with North Korea. Make sense now? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/60 "2013-07-14T18:49:53Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > You disagree, I guess? So one could just put quotes around anything they choose, as if the other person said it? I didn’t say you said it, bub. It is, after all, possible to legitimately quote certain phrases common in a language, one can do that “for emphasis”. Now, I suppose I could’ve put the italics tag around it, but a competent reader would observe that there’s no effective difference with the way I actually did indicate the emphasis. Also, on this board, you may have noticed, the usual way of quoting someone in particular is to put the quote in the nifty quote boxes. See that thing above my post this paragraph? That’s a quote box where I quoted you. I did not put “just taking” in a quote box. Care to guess why? Maybe this will help your perception of the actual issue at hand, that of North Korea. I have been involved with Korea and Koreans since the middle of 1977 and have lived in South Korea for a total of nine years. For that entire time (1977 on), I’ve paid attention to the news and other legitimate reports about North Korea. I do happen to know what I’m talking about here. You, on the other hand, are spouting nonsense that seems, judging by one of your posts (that bit about optimism), to be based on nothing more than what you wish could be true. Well, the world doesn’t work that way. ETA: Thanks, **Ravenman**. I’m kind of a language geek, after all (“Language is my bag, baby!”), what with my degree being in Linguistics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467.md?page=4)