# North Korea - Why aren't we focused on helping them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467 "2013-07-14T13:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/61 "2013-07-14T19:10:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So when **Monty** says that someone may “just take over” North Korea, he is using scare quotes to mock that idea, by indicating that it will be very costly for another country to go to war with North Korea. > > Make sense now? I don’t know. A scare quote implies that the quoting person doesn’t necessarily agree with the phrase. But where did the phrase come from? It is implied that it comes from me. I had a “take over” in my post, but not a “just take over”. Neither did I intend it to have that meaning. I suppose he assumed that I really was thinking about it like there would be a “just”, and therefore included it in the quote. And this is fair enough. But at the very least it forces me to state that this word (or meaning) wasn’t in my post. I know that it caused me to go back to check myself. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/62 "2013-07-14T19:11:28Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Ok, this is the last of your posts I’m going to answer. I don’t find this kind of debate very plesant. You are aware of the economic concept of prices? If you have something of value, or are capable of performing some service, another person can pay you a certain price for that good or service. You would then sell this good, or perform this service to the other person. This can happen even if you are not poor. Its not pleasant, I don’t get why people are being rude because you are concerned about human rights in the world’s worst nation. But realistically, it would be very hard to overthrow NK w/o tons of collateral damage. There are plutocrats firmly in charge, and the public are brainwashed. Plus NK has a lot of WMD and special forces soldiers they can use against SK and Japan. Plus, I don’t know what nations want NK overthrown. SK doesn’t want the responsibility to fix the country, it’ll cost them trillions. China likes having NK as a buffer state which they tend to control. The best thing to hope for is there is an internal coup and NK is taken over by reformers like you had in China in the 70s or Russia in the 80s, and the nation’s civil, human rights, political and economic situation starts to improve. However that is also probably not realistic. So really what can you do? I guess support efforts to help defectors in China, and support efforts to get information into North Korea. But a military means of bringing down the gov is not realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/63 "2013-07-14T19:16:43Z")
This may be an absolutely irrational fantasy, but can you imagine what would happen if the North suddenly peacefully dissolved, much like East Germany did with West Germany? That would be the best outcome of all – not that there weren’t problems for Germany. I don’t think anyone could have anticipated the German outcome much before it happened, yet it did. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/64 "2013-07-14T19:53:19Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > North Korea is a horrible dystopia. It is basically a slave state, ruled by a mad family. Except with slaves, the masters at least mostly feed them. With the propaganda, the concentration camps, etc, it is not incomparable to the dystopia presented in 1984. > > So why aren’t we focused on helping these poor people? > > Most people are for the American civil war, to protect the slaves. Most people are for the second world war, to protect the Jews and others. Why not a tiny war (compared with those) to save this enslaved population? Or perhaps an assassination or coup attempt. Because, for one thing, we cannot be entirely sure the Chinese would be cool with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/65 "2013-07-14T19:54:50Z")
I’d be more okay with every North Korean dead than with South Korea damaged. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/66 "2013-07-14T20:08:04Z")
Incidentally, a larger human rights catastrophe than North Korea occurred in [Darfur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict) last decade. And the [war in Congo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War) was even worse. Neither country had nukes and both would have been an order of magnitude or more easier to address than North Korea. Both would have been a quagmire costing thousands of lives among those deigning to intervene. There is a time, place and even duty to launch an humanitarian intervention: it falls under the rubric of [responsibility](http://responsibilitytoprotect.org/) to [protect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect). But these efforts require focused analysis and thought. Good but vague intentions are no substitute: methinks they are typically far worse than not caring at all, at least if acted upon. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/67 "2013-07-14T20:19:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Maybe this will help your perception of the actual issue at hand, that of North Korea. I have been involved with Korea and Koreans since the middle of 1977 and have lived in South Korea for a total of nine years. For that entire time (1977 on), I’ve paid attention to the news and other legitimate reports about North Korea. I do happen to know what I’m talking about here. You, on the other hand, are spouting nonsense that seems, judging by one of your posts (that bit about optimism), to be based on nothing more than what you wish could be true. Well, the world doesn’t work that way. This is interesting. So what do you think the possibilities are. If we want to imagine the future of the North Koreans, should we imagine a boot stamping on the human face forever? There is nothing noone can ever do about it, no matter how dedicated and how good their intentions? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/68 "2013-07-14T20:37:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > See, here, that’s the problem. You think it’s just the North Korean govenment that you don’t walk into. It’s North Korea itself and North Korean society that you don’t walk into. I don’t think that. I actually was about to write North Korea itself, but then I thought that someone would complain about how I could think that would be enough, and that you would still have to reach the government. And then they would go on to talk about how little I know about North Korea. You are being rather presumptuous about what I think and what I know. I obviously do not know as much as experts on the region (such as you), but most of the things in this thread that I’m being corrected on, I did know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/69 "2013-07-14T20:40:20Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > This is interesting. So what do you think the possibilities are. If we want to imagine the future of the North Koreans, should we imagine a boot stamping on the human face forever? There is nothing noone can ever do about it, no matter how dedicated and how good their intentions? You can imagine anything you like, I suppose. Can you imagine a way to overthrow the North Korean government in such a way that they are prevented from launching nukes? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/70 "2013-07-14T21:12:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You can imagine anything you like, I suppose. Can you imagine a way to overthrow the North Korean government in such a way that they are prevented from launching nukes? First strike? Or maybe a distraction would work. “Hey, look over there!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/71 "2013-07-14T21:35:31Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > First strike? That would certainly free them from slavery and oppression. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/72 "2013-07-14T21:59:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You can imagine anything you like, I suppose. Can you imagine a way to overthrow the North Korean government in such a way that they are prevented from launching nukes? Bribe a top general to hold a coup and declare democracy? Maybe pay \*China \*to solve it. We could lease Pacified North Korea from them for a hundred years. Oh! I know! We’ll drop laptop computers on them! Millions of laptops, airdropped! ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/73 "2013-07-14T22:18:46Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Oh! I know! We’ll drop laptop computers on them! Millions of laptops, airdropped! Turkeys would also be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/74 "2013-07-14T22:35:31Z")
Can someone name a prominent South Korean that proposes invasion of North Korea? I think that’s the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/75 "2013-07-14T22:40:20Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Turkeys would also be useful. "Attention, North Korea! Join our side and get a free turkey. That is all." Seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/76 "2013-07-14T22:41:54Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Turkeys would also be useful. As god is my witness, I thought Turkeys could fly. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/77 "2013-07-14T22:48:33Z")
Missed the edit window, sorry to spam… but I’ve got the actual answer. We arrange for one or more of their nuclear plants to ‘have an accident’. Then we absorb all the NK population into the south, for safety. Feed them, clothe them, educate them etc. ‘Cleanup’ efforts are UN-lead, which means we can swarm in and build roads, bridges, water pumps and such. Then let 'em back, if they promise to vote for the right people next time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/78 "2013-07-14T22:55:08Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Missed the edit window, sorry to spam… but I’ve got the actual answer. > > We arrange for one or more of their nuclear plants to ‘have an accident’… Any such “accident” would be seen as sabotage, and the nukes would fly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/79 "2013-07-14T22:59:42Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Missed the edit window, sorry to spam… but I’ve got the actual answer. > > We arrange for one or more of their nuclear plants to ‘have an accident’. > Then we absorb all the NK population into the south, for safety. Feed them, clothe them, educate them etc. > ‘Cleanup’ efforts are UN-lead, which means we can swarm in and build roads, bridges, water pumps and such. > > Then let 'em back, if they promise to vote for the right people next time. The North Korean population would never believe your lies about some “nuclear event”. North Korean nuclear plants are invulnerable, and the radiation they release, unlike decadent Capitalist radiation, actually strengthens people exposed to it. Seriously - the NKs already assume that all \*real \*humanitarian interventions are devious tricks. Why on earth would they fall for a fake one? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/80 "2013-07-15T00:17:37Z")
Needless to say, it would take overwhelming resources and decades to bring the North Koreans into the 18th century, even _without_ resistance from their government. Nobody is going to bother, and from what I hear from my Korean students, there would be revolution in South Korea if the government there proposed spending a dime to try to reintegrate the two countries. Germany still has problems because of unification, and that was peaceful and between modern halves. NK is too far behind civilization to bother with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467.md?page=5)