# North Korea - Why aren't we focused on helping them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467 "2013-07-14T13:59:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/141 "2013-07-16T15:06:04Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Good post. This is the kind of debate I (naively) hoped for when I started this thread. What debate? Everybody has pointed out how utterly and completely wrong you are about everything you’ve posted. Not much of a “debate” going on. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/142 "2013-07-16T15:35:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > What debate? Everybody has pointed out how utterly and completely wrong you are about everything you’ve posted. Not much of a “debate” going on. Except for in very few posts, including that one. That’s what I pointed out. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The OP might be interested in reading the reviews for this book: [Amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com/The-Bottom-Billion-Poorest-Countries/dp/0195311450/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=110VCGJQTPINL&coliid=I3P0DKFWISM9FR) That looks like a very interesting book. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/143 "2013-07-16T16:22:12Z")
1 - If it’s for humanitarian reasons, we’re not helping NK because their leadership doesn’t want our help. After Iraq, it would be political suicide to wage a moral crusade against NK. 2 - If it’s for monetary gains, the money would be better spent in other avenues. Between South Asia, Africa, and Mexico, there is no shortage of cheap labor for capitalists to… capitalize on. 3 - China doesn’t respect the wishes of other governments - only the almighty RMB. They’re actually IN South Sudan paving roads and building refineries, sucking up the oil so they don’t have to deal with OPEC. What does SK offer? A nation of malnourished, undereducated, impoverished populous surrounded by land mines. China already has enough poor to deal with on their own, no thank you. The US does too for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/144 "2013-07-16T16:26:15Z")
The world is full of people who “need help.” The North Koreans are at the absolute bottom of the list as far as being “helpable.” So they are basically fucked. No two ways about it. Since there is no way on earth for anybody to practically help them, why should we waste the calories even contemplating the idea? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/145 "2013-07-16T16:43:25Z")
Coming in late, sorry. I for one do care quite a bit. Enough to have spent a few months reading everything I could get my hands on about the problem. And let me start by saying that I’ve never researched any world problem about which there was so little to be found. There is so little literature that every thing quotes everything else. It got to the point that I could guess the publication date by noting which other publications were quoted. First-hand accounts are clear on one point: Nobody even within the country knows which of their closest friends or relatives are against the regime. One woman escaped, leaving behind a fiancee who had also dreamed of escape, and eventually tried to join her. She didn’t even dare to say “good-bye” to him. There are certainly concentration camps, in which whole generations are born, worked, starved and die a very early death. One young man showed his arms and legs - the bones were bent and bowed from hard work at too early an age. [http://praguesociety.org/content/branded-life-north-korea](http://praguesociety.org/content/branded-life-north-korea) [http://praguesociety.org/sites/default/files/styles/ps-grid-8/public/field/image/Shin-Dong-hyuk.jpg](http://praguesociety.org/sites/default/files/styles/ps-grid-8/public/field/image/Shin-Dong-hyuk.jpg) The entire population at this point is the product of decades of famine. The current generation is estimated to be 2.5 - 5 inches shorter than their South Korean counterparts. (Same original genetic pool.) [http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/the-korean-height-gap-431/](http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/the-korean-height-gap-431/) What effect has this same malnutrition had upon the developing brains of the children? we don’t have any stats (that I was able to find) but it’s clear that the answer is not “none” or “very little.” We also recognize that there is a mental health problem of massive proportions there. Every citizen has been forced to live in fear and paranoia for their whole lives. This article may give you some idea - but keep in mind, these are the kids who had the gumption and resourcefulness to escape. They are likely well above the average of those left behind: [School Offers Life Lessons To North Korean Defectors : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130330223) It’s also clear that the very last group of people who can possibly help the North Koreans are the Americans. The North Koreans have been raised to hate us at a level that is inconceivable to us. Children receiving mathematical instruction, word problems are put in terms like “If there are 35 American soldiers hiding, and a hero kills 7, how many are left?” every deprivation is blamed on us - “We have less food this year because Americans did X”, “We are unable to fix the electricity production because the Americans refuse to allow imports of Y”. I drop in here occasionally, just to develop an understanding of the “news” as presented to the NK people. [http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) It’s clear that they can have very little true understanding of the outside world. And it’s certainly true that within the living memory of their Grandparents, American soldiers killed a great many North Koreans. They hate us because they think we want to overthrow their government, when in fact they should hate us for not having done so long ago. As for the American attitude? The horrors that exist there are not addressed often enough in the media, and the American public is largely unaware of the camps and the wide-spread deprivation. But I’m not sure that should be fixed until we have a clear path to help. Driving up public support without any direction is only going to increase apathy and lower the support for eventual response. So, when people say look, read about it, that’s why. It’s a situation so horrid and so far gone that it’s really going to require every nation to join together in a response. > **[Embracing North Korean Defectors: The “Small Unification” of Korea](https://www.brookings.edu/research/embracing-north-korean-defectors-the-small-unification-of-korea/)** > > There are over 18,000 North Korean defectors living in South Korea and thousands more arrive each year, yet they often do not feel fully accepted by their new society. Kongdan Oh writes that South Korean government and society must better facilitate... Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/146 "2013-07-16T16:56:34Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I drop in here occasionally, just to develop an understanding of the “news” as presented to the NK people. [News From KOREAN CENTRAL NEWS AGENCY of DPRK](http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm) Yeah, but can Obama give [field guidance to mushroom farm](http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2013/201307/news15/20130715-24ee.html)? Can he? Eh? Didn’t think so! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/147 "2013-07-16T17:06:06Z")
I look forward to movies about the OP’s idea of a “simple” North Korean liberation. _Die Hard 6: Oui-John-BOOM!_ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/148 "2013-07-16T23:09:38Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > If those options are fully impossible, then I still think we could do smaller things, like doing more to help the people who escape the country, or trying to get more information to the citizens somehow, or something else. I’m sure experts in the field can come up with better ideas than I can think of off the bat. The US is particularly handicapped in regards to North Korea due to NK’s demonization of the US, nonetheless, the US has donated food aid to NK alongside many other nations to prevent mass death from famine. Various private agencies and individuals have gone to NK to provide advanced medical care and train their doctors in new techniques. China sends any illegal NK citizen it catches back to NK, but several other nations offer escapees assistance or asylum. Those that reach South Korea undergo several months of education, training, and adjustment and are also given a stipend for a time while they (hopefully) settle into South Korean society. China sends North Korea quite a bit of support in the form of food, fuel, and various materials. So there are some things being done. The biggest obstacle is that NK doesn’t want their people to have contact with the outside any more than absolutely necessary. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/149 "2013-07-17T00:56:35Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Germany was under no obligation to declare war upon the US just because Japan did. The [Tripartite Pact](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/triparti.asp) only required military assistance . . . That’s correct. [Hitler had given a verbal promise to the Japanese Foreign Minister that Germany would join the fight if Japan attacked America](http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/defeat/america-enters.htm), but he could have broken it. > [@Dissonance](#): > > As to what would have happened had Hitler not declared war upon the US, he really had no reason not to. The US and Germany were already in an undeclared shooting war in the Atlantic and had been since spring. There was a big difference between the US frustrating the U Boat campaign, and the US sending millions of troops to fight Germans. For evidence of how Roosevelt, with his ear to US public opinion, greatly limited US military involvement against Germany right until Hitler declared war on us, see [Those Angry Days: Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America’s Fight Over World War II, 1939-1941](http://www.amazon.com/Those-Angry-Days-Roosevelt-Lindbergh/dp/1400069742). The bitterness between progressives and tea partiers today is small compared to that between interventionists and isolationists then. I was in tears over 9/11, which was just a hiccup compared to the Blitz or the fall of France. And then to have half of the country only be concerned that we stay neutral – it might have driven me bonkers. I guess that should give me some insight into how Mr. jp feels about our policy towards North Korea. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Declaring war upon the US allowed long range U-boats to operate at will against shipping along the US coast. Yes, but the price was the full power of the US forcing Germany to unconditionally surrender. Not a good deal for the Nazis. > [@TruCelt](#): > > The North Koreans have been raised to hate us at a level that is inconceivable to us. Fortunately, [North Koreans are secretly enjoying access to foreign DVDs and radio, shaping the views of a people cut off for decades from the outside world](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9258974/North-Koreans-secretly-watching-foreign-media.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/150 "2013-07-17T01:02:13Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Fortunately, [North Koreans are secretly enjoying access to foreign DVDs and radio, shaping the views of a people cut off for decades from the outside world](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9258974/North-Koreans-secretly-watching-foreign-media.html). If they’re watching _Ally McBeal_, they’re probably stunned at how fat the star is. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/151 "2013-07-17T03:06:39Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > My (initial) question is more about why people aren’t more focused about rescuing these people, than they are about the threat North Korea might pose to Americans. It’s hard to help some one who is pointing a gun at your head and screaming at you. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/152 "2013-07-17T20:39:03Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > That’s correct. It’s also mutually exclusive of your original statement. > [@](#): > > There was a big difference between the US frustrating the U Boat campaign, and the US sending millions of troops to fight Germans. Not the one you’re imagining. ‘Frustrating the U-boat campaign’ is what war with Germany meant for almost another year, millions of US troops didn’t go to fight Germany when Hitler declared war. It would be eleven months before US ground forces were in contact with German troops after landing in North Africa in November 1942. There wouldn’t be millions of US troops fighting Germany until 1944. The US was already _de facto_ at war with Germany, a formal declaration was only a matter of time now that the US was at war with Japan. Germany was not prosecuting the war to its full ability in order to keep the US formally out of the war. In the short term the only effect of openly going to war with the US was the devastation of Operation Drumbeat, and the long term effects were likely to be the same whether Hitler declared war on the US or waited for the US to formally do so. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/153 "2013-07-18T12:27:32Z")
Reading this thread – I just feel, about the ordinary people of North Korea: poor, poor bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/154 "2013-07-18T13:10:41Z")
Here’s an interesting query for you: Since the general population and the government of _South Korea_ get bent out of shape when China intimates that territory that is part of _North Korea_ used to be part of China and intimates that without any design of retaking that territory, what do you think will happen to the over 600,000 Chinese citizens who’ve immigrated to South Korea if China were to invade North Korea? Another query: What do you think will happen to the Chinese companies currently in either Korea if China were to attack? Yet another query: What do you think will happen to the Koreans (Southern and Northern persuasions), both lawful and unlawful immigrants and also those working legally in China now if China were to attack? These aren’t just a few people. And, you know what, I kind of think they’d like to have some input on the deal before they’re made a sacrifice so someone can realize what they think is an ideal. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/155 "2013-07-18T14:53:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > . . . > These aren’t just a few people. And, you know what, I kind of think they’d like to have some input on the deal before they’re made a sacrifice so someone can realize what they think is an ideal. OK, I get your point. But I think it’s grossly misstating to characterize the situation as merely a wish to realize an ideal. We are discussing horrific suffering and human rights violation, truly on a par with the Nazi camps, although affecting fewer (“only” 23 million) people. There is room for a great deal of doubt and argument, but snark is a bit out of place IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/156 "2013-07-18T16:40:35Z")
Snark? What snark? I pointed out some facts about the matter. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/157 "2013-07-18T23:16:39Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > We are discussing horrific suffering and human rights violation, truly on a par with the Nazi camps, although affecting fewer (“only” 23 million) people. Those situations are so radically different. The great majority of people in the Nazi camps, whether death camps or concentration camps, were from nations that Germany conquered, not Germany itself. North Korea has a lot less people in its camps because it isn’t conquering neighbors. Also, Germany got worse and worse, whereas, since the 1990’s famine – admittedly beastlier than anything experienced by the German people in peacetime – North Korea seems to be somewhat improving. See: [The New Capitalists](http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571421-even-another-nuclear-provocation-looms-hope-glimmers-worlds-most-oppressed-people) The US interest is to peacefully encourage such trends. What about the camps where North Koreans, with the wrong class background, spend their whole lives? Aren’t they terrible? Yes. Does anyone on this board know we can shut them down? No. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/158 "2013-07-20T02:51:28Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > This is the real world, not a Hollywood movie. “Arranging” such accidents is the realm of James Bond, not real operations. Apropos of nothing much, really, but every time I’ve seen this post of yours, my eyes tricked me into seeing ‘“Ariranging” such accidents.’ That kept throwing me for a loop until I looked at it closer today. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467/159 "2013-07-20T06:16:41Z")
First of all, I’m against meddling with any foreign countries that don’t ask for our help. You assume they want our help, but you don’t know that they would be happier after your intervention, do you? Actually, someone on this board does have a solution. That person is me. It’s a simple solution and one that is easily arrived at when you consider that North Korea is irrational. This is why normal solutions fail. An irrational situation requires an irrational solution. My solution elegantly addresses all the criticisms of the other attempts to solve North Korea. You can go down the entire checklist, ticking them off one by one: - Too complex or difficult (solution is 2 words long) - Too costly (compared to every other proposed solution, it’s practically free) - Risk too many lives, too many innocents (only 1 person dies, no danger to SK or Japan) - NK is a closed society which is difficult to infiltrate, songbun, etc. without triggering hostile attack (NK invites in their agent of doom) - Lack of motivation to intervene (persons involved will have motivation) - Takes too long (regime change is overnight) - We don’t have the means or capability (actually, we do… we just don’t have the imagination) - Post-intervention consequences (minimal) Have you figured it out? Once you see the answer, it will seem obvious![spoiler]The answer is “Dennis Rodman”. You gotta beat crazy with even crazier. Step 1: Convince homeboy he is the rightful ruler of North Korea. Play into his massive ego. Tell him about all the Asian poon he’s going to get. Best of all, no fat chicks in NK! I don’t think this is a hard sell. Spend some time preparing him for takeover. Step 2: Assassinate Kim Jong Un. NK invites Dennis for a state visit. When Dennis sees Kim Jong Un, he immediately uses his martial arts training and massive physical strength to squeeze Kim’s neck until his head pops like a grape. The guards will find this so surprising and unexpected that they will be stunned and unable to stop him. Step 3: Takeover. Dennis declares Kim dead and himself the new rightful ruler of NK. Rodman will fight any challengers to his rule in fair and honorable hand-to-hand combat at the Pyongyang arena. The ruling party gets an immediately doubling of wealth (paid from covert funding) and he gives raises to the army to keep order. The Koreans (being fans of basketball) will accept this charismatic physical specimen with open arms, since he is a “rebel” who openly speaks out against his evil homeland, the West, the South and any other hated enemies of NK. Meanwhile, we quietly replace their nuclear weapons with harmless substitutes and slowly dismantle the NK artillery and other military threats. There you go, solution in 3 easy steps. Where’s my damn Nobel Peace Prize? [/spoiler] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korea-why-arent-we-focused-on-helping-them/663467.md?page=7)