# North Korean Defense **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974 "2014-06-30T00:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/21 "2014-06-30T03:58:34Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I guess I was hoping that a direct hit in the heart of their capital would break the magical hold the great leader has on the people. Perhaps. But it might also create a “rally around the flag” effect that would increase support for Kim Jong Un. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/22 "2014-06-30T04:10:15Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I guess I was hoping that a direct hit in the heart of their capital would break the magical hold the great leader has on the people. You mean, like the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon led to the collapse of the Bush II regime? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/23 "2014-06-30T04:22:24Z")
U.S. military action against North Korea which is opposed by South Korea, and in which South Korea pays a price in lives and wealth, might fracture the US-South Korea alliance. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/24 "2014-06-30T04:32:43Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I realize there is the possibility that North Korea could launch an attack on South Korea as a result of dropping a missile on their Capital, but I’m willing to take that chance. > [@dolphinboy](#): > > North Korea is the slightly paranoid bully of the neighborhood. > > If war breaks out on the Korean peninsula people will look back and wonder how the most powerful nation in the history of the world stood by and did nothing to stop it from happening. > [@dolphinboy](#): > > It was said ‘tongue in cheek’. > > I am pretty sure that South Korea could whip North Korea in a convention war, and I don’t think NK would be stupid enough to detonate a nuke in South Korea since they would soon be reduced to a smoldering crater. These statements display a profound ignorance of History, Geopolitics and Human Nature. I’m very grateful that you’re not in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/25 "2014-06-30T10:16:14Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > How sophisticated is DPRK’s defenses against our best missile technology? It’s certainly not as sophisticated as the ROK’s, the US’s, or even Japan’s. On the other hand, their offensive capability isn’t negligible. The DPRK knows full well that they’re not going to be attacked by the US, by the ROK, nor even by their main ally PRC. What they do know is that keeping about half of the ROK’s citizenry under the gun is a good bargaining chip. > [@](#): > > One way to show the North Koreans how vulnerable they are would be to send a missile to downtown Pyongyang and level one of their military compounds or government buildings. I think that would rattle just about any country that considers itself militarily superior to everyone else. They don’t consider themselves militarily superior to everyone else. The propaganda asserting otherwise is just that, propaganda, and is mostly for domestic consumption. Their government and their military–effectively the same thing since the institution of the “military first” policy–know that they won’t last in a war against the ROK and the US. That’s yet another reason why they keep their big guns, not missiles, targeting Seoul and its environs. The missiles are just attention-grabbers, bargaining chips. > [@](#): > > I assume North Korea has a radar defense system to detect incoming missiles, but do they have the technology to knock one out of the sky? I’m talking about our best missile here. You can launch it however you want (Submarine, Plane, Land based). I’m not talking about a nuke, just a big old ballistic missile. You do know that North Korea borders South Korea, right? Even if the DPRK did have the technology to bring down a missile in flight (quite unlikely they do), there’s no way they’d be able to down one launched from literally right next to their territory. > [@](#): > > I realize there is the possibility that North Korea could launch an attack on South Korea as a result of dropping a missile on their Capital, but I’m willing to take that chance. About twenty-five million people would prefer that you not be the one deciding on what chances be taken with their lives, no doubt. And let’s not forget that if the DPRK ever does decide it’s in their best interests to attack South Korea, Seoul and its environs will be toast. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/26 "2014-06-30T10:34:44Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > North Korea is the slightly paranoid bully of the neighborhood. They are constantly rattling their swords and intimidating their neighbors, and unlike Iran, they have been allowed to build nukes and even a missile-based delivery system. Who’s allowing them to build nukes? They’re doing it on their own with even their main ally telling them it’s not a good idea. The weapon-rattling is to attract attention and is their tried-and-true method of gaining concessions from other countries, such as the US, the ROK, and the PRC. > [@](#): > > The fact that they could delivery a nuke to downtown Tokyo makes everyone within striking range extremely nervous. That’s not a fact yet. They can’t deliver a nuke anywhere. > [@](#): > > I have been to South Korea and they live in constant fear of a massive attack, and it is wearing them down. Evidently you didn’t glean a lot while there. The ROK, and Seoul in particular, do not “live in constant fear of attack”. The ROK government knows full well that the combined forces of the UN Command and the ROK will stave off an actual attack from the DPRK. The PRC also is quite committed to their idea of “stability on the Korean peninsula,” meaning that the PRC will withdraw all support for the DPRK if they attack the South. You might recall that South Korea and the PRC have a bit of trade going on between those two countries. > [@](#): > > NK launched two missiles today that harmlessly landed in the sea. As intended. > [@](#): > > Had the missiles inadvertently landed in Seoul instead it could have triggered a hot war. That would have taken a colossal lack of comprehension of maps, geography, directions, and a few other things to have the things “inadvertently” land in Seoul. Since they weren’t nuclear devices, though, and were just test missiles, assuming your scenario, the actual damage would likely have been slight. North Korea has already done worse than that in quite recent memory. I refer you to the ROKS Cheonan (PCC-722) and Yeonpyeongdo. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile they brainwash, isolate, imprison and starve their own population. That has nothing to do with the issue you raised in that same paragraph. Anyway, the brainwashing and other measures are simply to keep the domestic population under control. What would you have the ROK do? If the ROK attacks, then Seoul and its environs are in for quite a shelling. > [@](#): > > Maintaining the status quo means malnutrition and suffering for the masses and death to anyone who disagrees with the exhausted leader. Outside interference such as you suggest with that status quo would mean an attack on about half the population of South Korea. Unlike you, the leadership–military and civilian–of South Korea seems to be well aware of that fact. > [@](#): > > The chance of a popular uprising seems incredibly low. Zero. There is no chance of a popular uprising. > [@](#): > > How can the West let an unstable egomaniac determine when the next nuclear war is going to start? How can this all turn out well for everyone involved? First off: You don’t know KJE is actually unstable. Next: Nobody is really sure that KJE is the one actually in control, that he’s not a figure-head. Third: As mentioned already, the DPRK cannot deliver nukes anywhere yet. Finally: There’s this big ol’ country on the other side of DPRK; that country is the PRC. They’re not exactly small potatoes. And the PRC is very dedicated to the concept of “stability on the Korean peninsula”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/27 "2014-06-30T10:35:59Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > These statements display a profound ignorance of History, Geopolitics and Human Nature. I’m very grateful that you’re not in charge. In short: dolphinboy hasn’t a clue about either Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/28 "2014-06-30T10:38:37Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I guess I was hoping that a direct hit in the heart of their capital would break the magical hold the great leader has on the people. He can’t protect them from their enemies any more than I can. > > As far as an aging military elite goes, aren’t they training their replacements as we speak? There is no magical hold. There is a lot of orchestrated public display, mostly for the benefit of governments outside NK. The hold is much more simple, and well understood. Tried and tested through many totalitarian regimes of all political colours. Fear. The people of NK are no more or less stupid than anywhere else. You can be sure that a clear understanding of their situation is in the minds of most citizens. As is the personal threat concomitant with voicing it. The internal rhetoric that the people are fed includes the idea that NK is under constant immediate threat from the outside, and that pre-eminence given to the military is the only possible way for the country that does not involve it being overrun and enslaved. Dropping a cruise missile onto them would probably do little more than provide clear evidence of the motives of a belligerent USA and feed the propaganda machine. It is a brittle regime - they all are. But such regimes won’t fall apart gracefully while the old guard - those military officers who took part in the war, and grew to power under the regime, have gone. The new generations tend to not have the ties and fears of the old, and it is very difficult to keep a regime continuing. It is hard to train insanity and the loyalties forged in war. The trick is when enough people are in power that really would prefer not to execute their colleagues for personal gain. Spain made a bloodless transition. As did the USSR. But it is a matter of when the time comes. NK is going to be harder, but I suspect when it comes, it will be quick, and no-one will expect it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/29 "2014-06-30T10:47:21Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > The trick is when enough people are in power that really would prefer not to execute their colleagues for personal gain. North Korea’s leadership seems to realize that. Thus the concept of [songbun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun). Someone with a lower songbun than you is simply not your colleague. And depending on how far down the songbun scale someone is, one barely registers as human–called “hostile class” by officialdom. With the changes in the North’s economy, songbun has decreased in importance but it’s still a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/30 "2014-06-30T13:01:11Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > If war breaks out on the Korean peninsula people will look back and wonder how the most powerful nation in the history of the world stood by and did nothing to stop it from happening. So your solution to preventing war on the Korean peninsula is to start a war on the Korean peninsula? Seriously, though; force of arms is what one is trying to avoid in the first place, is it not? You may have heard the term ‘diplomacy’ once or twice in your travels. This ‘diplomacy’ has apparently been a contributing factor to the lack of full-scale war between the Koreas in more than fifty years. Yeah, I know; it’s about as exciting as watching paint dry, and diplomacy doesn’t have all that impressive hardware that goes ‘bang’. But still. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/31 "2014-06-30T13:04:11Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > North Korea’s leadership seems to realize that. Thus the concept of [songbun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun). Someone with a lower songbun than you is simply not your colleague. And depending on how far down the songbun scale someone is, one barely registers as human–called “hostile class” by officialdom. With the changes in the North’s economy, songbun has decreased in importance but it’s still a big deal. Thanks for posting that. Fascinating concept. Amazing that such a thing can exist to this date. Back to the OP- I’m sure the US has the capability to overcome whatever defenses that NK has. That being said, it would serve no useful purpose. We’d run the risk of provoking China, the NK would very likely retaliate against the South, and we’d kill innocents in the process. It would be a very foolish move. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/32 "2014-06-30T13:10:21Z")
I have to admit some minor curiosity in how it would play out if things went hot. I have that luxury, being some 10,000 km away. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/33 "2014-06-30T14:05:27Z")
[QUOTE=el\_Kabong] and diplomacy doesn’t have all that impressive hardware that goes ‘bang’. [/QUOTE] Well, that all depends on the proclivities of the individual ambassador(s) considered, does it not ? 🙂 [QUOTE=Monty] And the PRC is very dedicated to the concept of “stability on the Korean peninsula”. [/QUOTE] This. And I’ll add that the PRC is 1) increasingly weary of its “ally” making an ass of itself on a regular basis and b) starving refugees traipsing across their southern border illegally. Best Korea is very much China’s Mexico in that regards. I honestly wonder if during my lifetime (which started in the early 80s FWIW, but I’m a heavy smoker) we won’t see China call it quits and lay the smackdown themselves. Maybe even annex it altogether - although \*that \*I would strongly doubt. On account of it’s a complete shitheap that makes East Germany look like Switzerland. But if they did, hey, they’re the up-and-coming superpower, they get to do a little adventurous “nation building”. We’ve all been there, don’t be all judge-y ! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/34 "2014-06-30T14:19:11Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > How can the West let an unstable egomaniac determine when the next nuclear war is going to start? How can this all turn out well for everyone involved? Damn skippy you are! It makes much more sense for the West to determine when the next nuclear war is going to start. I’m sure that will turn out much better for everyone. Next time Putin mouths off we should fire one of our missiles at Moscow just to show him that we can. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/35 "2014-06-30T14:24:29Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > So your solution to preventing war on the Korean peninsula is to start a war on the Korean peninsula? Yeah, this is pretty much the point I don’t get. To prevent war, we start a war. As long as we’re not the ones directly in the line of fire, we can sweep the casualties under “tragic but necessary costs”, right? > [@dolphinboy](#): > > I have been to South Korea and they live in constant fear of a massive attack, and it is wearing them down. I was just in Seoul a couple months ago visiting extended family. I’m not sure where you saw these worn down, fearful people. The only worn down people I saw were the people working 80 hour weeks. The percentage of South Koreans who live in Seoul or in the surrounding area has increased since the Korean War, not decreased. And much of the major infrastructure and industry of the country is based around Seoul. Those are hardly the actions of a people constantly fearful of attack. **dolphinboy** , [this is hardly the first time you’ve brought up the concept of a pre-emptive first strike on North Korea](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=687329). You’ve beaten this drum multiple times. For years now. And been given the same explanations in those threads you’ve been given here, which have directly contradicted things you assert. Is there something you think has changed? Or a sudden change in the psychology of the average citizen of Seoul? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/36 "2014-06-30T14:28:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have to admit some minor curiosity… I have that luxury, being some 10,000 km away. ummmmm… You may be 10000 km away from Korea… But you’re only a few inches away from your Samsung Galaxy 5, or whatever. You may not care about 25 million residents of Seoul…but I betcha you care about the sim chip in your smartphone. Your curiosity won’t be so minor when you and all your friends can’t buy cell phones, because the company doesnt exist anymore. . ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/37 "2014-06-30T14:42:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, that all depends on the proclivities of the individual ambassador(s) considered, does it not ? 🙂 > > This. And I’ll add that the PRC is 1) increasingly weary of its “ally” making an ass of itself on a regular basis and b) starving refugees traipsing across their southern border illegally. Best Korea is very much China’s Mexico in that regards. > > I honestly wonder if during my lifetime (which started in the early 80s FWIW, but I’m a heavy smoker) we won’t see China call it quits and lay the smackdown themselves. Maybe even annex it altogether - although \*that \*I would strongly doubt. On account of it’s a complete shitheap that makes East Germany look like Switzerland. > > But if they did, hey, they’re the up-and-coming superpower, they get to do a little adventurous “nation building”. We’ve all been there, don’t be all judge-y ! I’d love to see something along the lines of “_The PRC Communist Party announces it’s merger with the Communist Party of the DPRK and welcomes the Chairman of the DPRK! The Chairman and his staff will move offices to Beijing so that the Great Leader may facilitate the merger of our two glorious parties!_” Hopefully followed 2 years later by “_The Communist Party of the PRC regrets to announce the passing of our beloved Chairman of the DPRK._” Never gonna happen, but I can fantasize. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/38 "2014-06-30T17:12:51Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > ummmmm… > You may be 10000 km away from Korea… > But you’re only a few inches away from your Samsung Galaxy 5, or whatever. > You may not care about 25 million residents of Seoul…but I betcha you care about the sim chip in your smartphone. > Your curiosity won’t be so minor when you and all your friends can’t buy cell phones, because the company doesnt exist anymore. . On the other hand, it might be Blackberry’s chance to get back in the game! Let the missiles fly! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/39 "2014-06-30T18:07:39Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > ummmmm… > You may be 10000 km away from Korea… > But you’re only a few inches away from your Samsung Galaxy 5, or whatever. > You may not care about 25 million residents of Seoul…but I betcha you care about the sim chip in your smartphone. > Your curiosity won’t be so minor when you and all your friends can’t buy cell phones, because the company doesnt exist anymore. . Nevertheless, the situation holds a certain dark intrigue, promising a rapid violent political realignment of something I’d accepted as normal since I was a kid, similar in some vague ways to the collapse of East Germany, but ramped up. It’s a Galaxy Note II, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974/40 "2014-06-30T18:08:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > North Korea’s leadership seems to realize that. Thus the concept of [songbun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun). Someone with a lower songbun than you is simply not your colleague. And depending on how far down the songbun scale someone is, one barely registers as human–called “hostile class” by officialdom. With the changes in the North’s economy, songbun has decreased in importance but it’s still a big deal. > > Thanks for posting that. Fascinating concept. Amazing that such a thing can exist to this date. Yes, thank you for posting that. It explains a lot about the control that North Korea exerts on its citizens. The loose categories western societies place on its citizens are bad enough, but to have your life graded to that detail in a fairly arbitrary system would be kind of crushing no matter what grade you ended up with. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > So your solution to preventing war on the Korean peninsula is to start a war on the Korean peninsula? > > Seriously, though; force of arms is what one is trying to avoid in the first place, is it not? You may have heard the term ‘diplomacy’ once or twice in your travels. This ‘diplomacy’ has apparently been a contributing factor to the lack of full-scale war between the Koreas in more than fifty years. > > Yeah, I know; it’s about as exciting as watching paint dry, and diplomacy doesn’t have all that impressive hardware that goes ‘bang’. But still. Yep, if endless talking is the alternative to war: Please, let’s chat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-defense/691974.md?page=3)