# North Korean Military Strength **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459 "2013-03-20T16:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/81 "2013-03-22T08:03:34Z")
You don’t suppose the US has re-fitted a SSN Boomer or two with conventional warheads, set to blanket the “dug-in” artillery? Or maybe a few bunker busters dialed in to detonate just far enough down that the surface jumps a bit when they detonate? Those would sound like ways to deal with “hidden” (if there actually are any hidden) tunnels. And those anti-artillery shells? Make them my favorites for demoralizing any survivors: fuel-air. How long would it take for those to reach target? The North would need to pray that the got all those guns loaded and fired simultaneously, and that 100% of those ancient shells actually exploded - without jamming in the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/82 "2013-03-22T08:43:10Z")
The answer to the “can they be re-configured to fire conventional” is yes - has been done; we now have 4 SSGN’s with the capability of 154 Cruise, or xxx whatevers, even down to missles that can be launched from torpedo tubes. The Wiki article mentions super- and **hyper-** sonig cruise missles. Are hyper-sonic missles now both fait accompli and admitted to by the US? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/83 "2013-03-22T12:37:04Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > And the DPRK are still using some of that equipment today. Which if you’ve been reading my posts you’d notice I’ve pointed out not once but twice that half of their hardware is of 1960s vintage; the other half is even older. I was responding to your pithy comment about how much ass the US kicked in Iraq as proof of **Wesley Clark** ’s ignorant comment that nations win because of how technologically advanced they are. The US had the latest in techno-wizardry in 1950, up to and including the bomb and still got its ass kicked all the way down the Korean peninsula not once but twice, nearly being kicked out of Korea altogether the first time by the North Koreans. As to your thought experiment of could Japan take Wake Island today should they want to for some truly bizarre reason as an opening move in an even more bizarrely implausible war, you must not keep up on Japan’s military capabilities. They could do so with ease; the [Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Maritime_Self-Defense_Force)is one of the largest navies in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/84 "2013-03-22T13:17:06Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You clearly have no idea how wars work. Being more technologically advanced is no guarantee of victory; take a look at Vietnam if you need an example. [snip] > > Not only was Nazi Germany in possession of one of the most highly motivated armies in modern times if not all of history, among the most determined and motivated of their troops were the elite SS Panzer divisions. > > [snip] Good long post. I can’t see in anyway how you could make a case for the “if not all in history” part. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/85 "2013-03-23T04:57:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the PRK can’t light the streets at night. Their people are at starvation levels. They simply don’t have the supplies to advance a war. The previous conflict was supported from outside their country and that support is not there today. Otherwise they would have the resources to feed their people and light their streets. > > It’s that simple. A tank with no fuel is a war monument. Please note I’m not arguing the likelihood or even plausibility of a war. My comments were in response to \*\*TBSG \*\*and **chargerich** ’s early unsupported assertions that the ROK would roll over and start whimpering like a beaten dog because their baby soft boys can’t take a real war by the hardened men of the DPRK in the event of a long, protracted war that somehow the US decided not to get involved in. None of which is plausible. The linked article on the current state of North Korea’s army suggests there are reserves of fuel. How many and how much is not addressed but one has to assume that it could not become a protracted struggle for this very reason, which is even one more reason the arguments by \*\*TBSG \*\*and **chargerich** fail. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/86 "2013-03-23T05:33:56Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Please note I’m not arguing the likelihood or even plausibility of a war. My comments were in response to \*\*TBSG \*\*and **chargerich** ’s early unsupported assertions that the ROK would roll over and start whimpering like a beaten dog because their baby soft boys can’t take a real war by the hardened men of the DPRK in the event of a long, protracted war that somehow the US decided not to get involved in. None of which is plausible. > > The linked article on the current state of North Korea’s army suggests there are reserves of fuel. How many and how much is not addressed but one has to assume that it could not become a protracted struggle for this very reason, which is even one more reason the arguments by \*\*TBSG \*\*and **chargerich** fail. my response was more of a tack-on to what you said. If that loon of a dictator actually pulled the trigger Soul would take a pasting and the response would be measured in hours. NK would lose their communication and air support right off the top and it would quickly fall apart. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/87 "2013-03-23T06:34:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > my response was more of a tack-on to what you said. If that loon of a dictator actually pulled the trigger Soul would take a pasting and the response would be measured in hours. NK would lose their communication and air support right off the top and it would quickly fall apart. Ah, OK. I was wondering why my comment was selected, now I understand. Without sufficient fuel, the DPRK army can’t conduct large scale army maneuvers, either. I’ve also read accounts of questionable leadership in the army, but one always wonders exactly what is going on in that country. Given that intelligence would detect massing prior to any attack, I can’t see the ROK and US forces being caught unprepared. I don’t know that it would be the same cake walk as Iraq I and Iraq II, and as you say, Seoul would take some pretty fierce fire, but I just can’t see it going for the Loons. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/88 "2013-03-23T07:17:29Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Re upthread about pre-emptive nuclear strike. For some time I have held this unhappy feeling that it will be Israel, which will have difficulty, to put it mildly, of absorbing a nuclear strike. > > Then, as mentioned upthread, the judgement of calumny will fall on the defenders. Not just Israel. Any country which has credible information of an imminent attack is likely to launch first. As it is if there are preparation seen for the various NK missiles about to be launched the Minuteman III and Trident II missiles would be launched immdietly at them. That is the only realistic way to have a chance to stop them. Against the Sovs/Russians the maths was two warheads targeted per launcher, with the correspondingly much fewer launchers available to the North Koreans, they can get upto 3 or even 4 warheads per launcher. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459/89 "2013-03-24T12:52:55Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You clearly have no idea how wars work. Being more technologically advanced is no guarantee of victory; take a look at Vietnam if you need an example. Or Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. They had substantial material advantages and technological advantages once Iran could no longer maintain the US made equipment inherited from the Shah, but Iraq could only manage a stalemate in that one. The UN came perilously close to being defeated by the North Koreans in the actual Korean War, being reduced to controlling an area around Pusan despite total control of the skies and the seas. > Utter bullshit. Will to fight, or morale, élan, fighting spirit, esprit de corps or whatever you choose to call it is anything but largely irrelevant. The morale may no longer be to the material as three to one as per Napoleon’s dictum, but it is still a decisive factor. Where it is not enough is when it is relied upon to compensate for gross material, doctrinal, logistical or other deficiencies as **Alessan** noted. Again, you are making the mistake of assuming the North must have a weaker will because they are the “bad guys” fighting for a dictator. Not only was Nazi Germany in possession of one of the most highly motivated armies in modern times if not all of history, among the most determined and motivated of their troops were the elite SS Panzer divisions. > > Historical knowledge is what makes me an expert on this, or at least not prone to flights of fancy. A mass awakening of soldiers to the decadence of the capitalist exploiters of the working class isn’t going to happen in an army and society ruled over by paranoia and fear. > > Wow. Now this just really takes the cake. Do you really think the German people were unaware of what was happening to the Jews, Roma, Slavs, homosexuals, etc, etc, etc? That the peoples of the USSR were unaware of the Gulags, the orchestrated campaigns of starvation in the Ukraine aimed at the Kulaks? They made no attempt to hide these things; they were proudly presented by the respective propaganda organs. [Kristallnacht](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht) was hardly a secret, nor was the reduction of Jews to non-citizens and deportation to concentration camps. The ash from the burning of bodies at extermination camps could hardly been concealed. Far more to the point however, Germans and Soviets knew full well what kind of dictatorial governments they were fighting for or under, and it didn’t prevent them from being effective combat troops. The atrocities being comitted by both sides in the fighting between Russia and the Chechens, or the Serbs, Bosnians, and Croats were widely reported to all concerned sides using modern communications technology and none of them ran screaming to thier leaders to end the war for they were comitting such wicked acts. That’s what happens when people find out about atrocities being committed even by thier own side during war. Jesus, how hard is it to have a discussion like a respectful adult and not like a pissy 14 year old girl? I hope you act like this in real life, because it wouldn’t be long before it bit you in the ass, people aren’t going to put up with that bullshit. Having said that, there is a reason that western europe conquered and divided up the world as they saw fit during the 1500-1950 period, they were technologically advanced compared to the areas they invaded (well that and disease). Spain took latin america. Africa was divied up, and so was Asia. North America was conquered by Britain. etc. When I say technologically advanced, I mean generations of difference between nations in their tools, not minor differences. The US vs Iraq, or Europe vs the rest of the world in the 19th century are examples. > **[List of former European colonies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_European_colonies)** > > This is a list of former European colonies. > The European countries which had the most colonies throughout history were: > United Kingdom (130), France (90), Portugal (52), Spain (44), Netherlands (29), Germany (20), Russia (17), Denmark (9), Sweden (8), Italy (7), Norway (6), Belgium (3), and Courland (2). > (see France Antarctique and France Équinoxiale) Iraq and Iran are both developing nations, and the international community didn’t want a clear winner since both were oil rich nations that had destructive governments. The stalemate was in part the goal of the rest of the world. I do not think the 1950s Korean war counts as an example because the technological differences were minor between the parties. In a battle between a domestic insurgency and a foreign power, the foreign power tends to lost even if they are more technologically advanced. The entire de-colonialization movement of the 20th century showed that. But when it comes to taking on the official military and official government, the more advanced nation tends to win. Eventually all the colonies obtained independence, despite having a weaker level of technology. The occupation of North Korea could cause serious problems if there is a domestic insurgency. But destroying the official North Korean military shouldn’t be that hard for the US and SK. The military hardware like tanks, artillery, ships transportation lines, planes, etc. will probably be destroyed pretty rapidly. So will the official government which may break down the ability of front line soldiers to act. Stalin’s crimes didn’t come to light until the 50s when Khrushchev engaged in de-Stalinization. People were generally not aware of the scale of the crimes, or that Stalin was behind them. The holocaust was intended to be a secret, and came to light because the Germans lost the war. I do not think those count as examples. But people did know those governments did do evil things (maybe not on the scale that it happened, but people knew about the gulags and deportation) and they fought anyway. So you have a point on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/north-korean-military-strength/653459.md?page=4)