# Northern France/Belgium/Netherlands anyone? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2000, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385 "2000-11-30T15:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiva)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/1 "2000-11-30T15:56:38Z")
My wife and I will be visiting this part of Yurrup next June. Anyone got the straight dope on must-sees and must-avoids in the area? I’m interested in Belgian ales and would love to visit some abbey breweries. My wife insists we visit Amsterdam and I’m not arguing. TIA, Shiva ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/2 "2000-11-30T18:53:03Z")
I had this big-ass answer all typed out, links and info galore, and then my browser crashed. One link I remember: [http://www.visitamsterdam.nl/](http://www.visitamsterdam.nl/) to keep you busy. It’s in English, and I really don’t know if their info is any good. I’ve got to go now (it seems I actually have a life), but I **will** get back to you on this. Can you narrow down your interests and/or turn-offs a little? Belgium and The Netherlands may be hard to find on the globe, but combined they still cover a little over 72,000 square miles… Oh, for reference: I live about 4 miles north of the Dutch-Belgian border. [arnold] I’ll be back! [/arnold] (And don’t hesitate to remind me by e-mail if I don’t get back to you before Monday.) P.S. ::waving arms frantically:: _The_ Shiva? ---
**Author:** ![Shiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiva)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/3 "2000-11-30T21:41:33Z")
And sorry about your crash. I guess we could be described as atypical tourists. We prefer to avoid tourist traps and big cities in general in favor of villages and little known sites. We’re **not** interested in canned history or standing in line to see some guy make wooden shoes. I’ve already found [http://www.visitbelgium.com](http://www.visitbelgium.com), and it had a great list of breweries and cafes. We’ll be staying in France; Montreuil-Sur-Mer near Calais specifically, and day tripping north into Belgium and Holland. Any quaint villages (duh), oddball sites, or unique regional points of interest north of Paris and south of Amsterdam would be great. I’ve noticed on my map a pretty extensive canal network in northern France and Belgium. Know anything about this? Also, if you could address the cars vs. rail issue it would be a great help. I doesn’t look like the smaller villages have railroad stations. And yes, I am _The_ Shiva in my mind, anyway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/4 "2000-11-30T22:11:06Z")
Dday sites are a must see. In addition to the biggies (Omaha beach, etc), can personally recommend Arromanches, coastal town that was the site of an artificial harbor (built by the Brits, if I recall correctly) used post-Dday to supply the whole operation. Fantastic museum, right on the beach; you can look out and see remnants of the breakwater-thingies they sunk out there to create the harbor. Very cool. SkinnyGuy: bummer about the crash. There’s nothing like a whole buttload of work right down the crapper. ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/5 "2000-12-01T23:25:15Z")
A few random points. [list=1] [li]Language[/li]Your target area has two basic languages: French and Dutch. Roughly speaking, anything south of Brussel speaks French, north speaks Dutch. (And yes, that little triangle of France around Dunkerque speaks a Dutch dialect.) Around Brussel people are generally bilingual. If you were to visit that quaint little village, chances are nobody’s interested in your native language. ☹ If you don’t speak French or Dutch (I would be most surprised if you speak Dutch) you’ll need a phrase book (per language of course). The further north you travel from Brussel, the less and less French people will speak. Around Antwerpen it’s all Dutch. From that point on the younger generation will speak English in varying degrees of incorrectness. Touristy places will generally have an anglophone around, but don’t count on it, especially south of Brussel. [li]Transportation[/li]If you want to travel to Amsterdam from Calais, train is a good mode of transportation. There’s a Calais-Brussels train, and from Brussels there’s a fast train to Amsterdam. Between Brussel and Amsterdam you’ll pass Antwerpen, Rotterdam and Den Haag. **Please note: Calais-Amsterdam will take at least FIVE TO SIX HOURS each way.** As you guessed, only largers towns have train connections. Renting a car might be a good option for going outside the touristy places. (The breweries in Belgium will most likely not be around train stations.) You might want to check with a rental agency in advance for an automatic transmission. Most cars around here have manual stick shifts. [li]Roads & Driving[/li]Compared to the average American, we (Europeans) drive like maniacs. Around the larger cities (Brussel, Antwerpen, Gent, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Amsterdam) it’s a zoo. Be prepared. Also, the main road from Calais to Belgium (the A16/E40 to Oostende/Brussel) is one big traffic jam in the summer. It’s the main coastal highway, and if the weather is particularly good it turns into one big car park. [/list=1] Now, some things to see. You don’t want tourist traps, so we’ll scratch tulip fields, cheese markets, clog factories (if they even exist) and coffee (ie. hash) shops. Windmills? Maybe a little touristy, but if you’re interested in how the Dutch manage to keep their feet dry while living up (down) to 22 feet below sea level, you might want to visit _Kinderdijk_. It’s a little village where there’s a row of still operational **and functioning** 17th century windmills. One of the windmills is open for visitors. Fairly touristic, but only that one windmill has an entrance fee. Also pretty crowded during summer I hear (parking problems). In 1953 (February 1st IIRC) a national disaster was declared when most of the province of Zeeland flooded during dike breaks (big-ass storm). For this the _Deltawerken_ (Delta Works) have been created. An extensive system of dikes and dams and whatnot to prevent such a thing from ever happening again. The artifical island _Neeltje Jans_ is now a museum. Tours, in summer a boat tour, possibility of walking inside the dam. (Okay, the Hoover Dam it ain’t, but this one’s ecologically sound. Ish.) In the part of France you’ll be in, and just across the border in Belgium, you’ll find a lot of World War One memorials. These are not exactly uplifting things to see, but when I saw them it left a big impression on me. It is unbelievable how many people have died for, and on, some muddy piece of land. The system of canals you’re referring to might be the water housekeeping system for the polders in that area. Should you visit _Kinderdijk_ you’ll learn more about polders than you might want to. The big problem is of course that I can’t see the forest for the trees. Anything you might think different or interesting, I take for granted. You could check out the [Dutch Tourist Board site](http://www.vvv.nl) for things typical. You could also try [the Ministry of Foreign Affairs](http://www.minbuza.nl) for their info, but this will be mainly cultural information, not places to visit. We could do this the other way around: you name a region (preferably Dutch or vicinity of Antwerpen), and I’ll see what I can find out for you. I’m sorry for not supplying any proper links, but my browser is acting up again. Maybe it’s time to buy (!) another (!!) browser. Anybody got the Straight Dope[sup]TM[/sup] on RISC OS browsers? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2000, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/6 "2000-12-01T23:48:31Z")
My first trip to Europe (not counting a four-week course I took in Scotland where I was too scared to figure out where I was going) was to the Netherlands and Belgium. The trip was quite fun. The Netherlands is one of the easiest countries to get around in. There are train connections to just about everywhere and it seems that the trains are quite punctual. I would recommend renting a bicycle in the Netherlands. The land is invariably flat and easy to cover. Bicycle rental shops are ubiquitous. Unless you are way out in the country in the Netherlans, people will speak English. It seems to me that people in the Netherlands speak English better than native speakers of English. Amsterdam is a fun city to visit. Den Haag isn’t, although if you like art, the museums are worth a try. There was a state-run museum there inside an old prison. I took a tour with a bunch of school kids and they all seemed to really enjoy seeing the instruments of torture, which I found a bit odd, as something like that wouldn’t be shown in the US. The tour was given in Dutch, but I figured it out. In Belgium, I found out that the French speaking part had fewer English speakers. Brussels had quite a few English speakers, which was helpful since I was almost always lost when I was there. The city of Bruges while some might find too be a bit too full of tourists is lovely nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Shiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiva)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/7 "2000-12-02T01:15:14Z")
**drpepper** , we’ll be visiting a number of both WWI and WWII sites for sure. Well, as many as the Mrs. can tolerate anyway. There’s no way I’d visit that part of Europe and not pay my respects. **SkinnyGuy** , thanks so much for all the info. Language will be a challenge, but not one we can’t handle. We’re working on our French right now, and I can usually figure out Dutch ok because my German is passable. A Dutch phrasebook is a must buy. The train info is great too. Based on your 5-6 hour travel time between Amsterdam and Calais we’ll probably stay overnight in Amsterdam. Drive like a maniac? No problem, I’m from New Jersey! 😉 Scratch the coffee shops? Don’t you dare! I saw a documentary on the Delta Works a few years ago. sounds fascinating. I promise not to make any finger/dike jokes. It looks like the main deterrent to us spending much time in Holland will be travel time. Anyone got the straight dope on Nord/Pas de Calais? **BobT** , thanks for the warning on Den Haag. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/8 "2000-12-02T04:00:07Z")
Shiva: My father, who remembers our trip to Europe in 1995 better than I do, wants to know if you’re religious. There are a shitload of things he’d recommend if you were. Go to Deauville and Mt. St. Michel regardless. ---
**Author:** ![lesa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/34f0e0/32.png) [@lesa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lesa)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/9 "2000-12-02T15:23:41Z")
The only thing I have to add is this: I saw a cooking show recently that claimed people in Belgium eat chocolate sandwiches. Two slices of buttered bread with chocolate candy bars inside! So your research assignment is to find out if this is true, and let us know! Have a fun trip! ---
**Author:** ![Shiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiva)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/10 "2000-12-02T17:11:20Z")
I’m not the least bit religious, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate religion’s finer offerings like Trappist ales and great cathedrals. Any info is good info, tell Pop to bring it on! **lesa** , chocolate sandwiches? Sounds like a great braekfast to me! Will report back after further research. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/11 "2000-12-02T21:43:14Z")
Okay, I just got back from a three week trip to Belgium a few months ago. give me a say to get my thoughts together and to remember exactly what I did and I’ll let you know what to see. ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2000, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/12 "2000-12-03T00:57:51Z")
Shiva, since you mention food as an interest in your profile, why don’t you sample a typical delicacy from each country and let the Board know how you liked them. France: _escargots_ (s-car-go), also known as snails. Belgium: _waterkonijn_ (water co-nine), literally water rabbit but better known as the musk-rat (musquash). And if you’re too _yella_ to eat aquatic rodent you can settle for _duif_ (dive), which is pigeon. Netherlands: _Hollandse Nieuwe_ (holland-sah new-ah), literally Dutch New. This is raw herring. With raw onions (rings or diced). Yummy! I really like this stuff. In a bun with onion rings. Separates the boys from the men. And your breath will separate you from any normal company for a week straight. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2000, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/13 "2000-12-03T14:50:35Z")
My father, who’s been to France several times, recommends the following places (most, if not all, with cathedrals): Chartres, Solesmes, Bec, Soligny-La Trappe, Loire valley You may or may not want to attend a massat one of these places if such interests you. I remember this much about the Bec mass, though: consecration alone took an hour. Mass was longer, it seemed to me, than the Easter Vigil on the other side of the Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2000, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/14 "2000-12-04T03:45:24Z")
I got all happy when I saw this thread, and then I saw that **Skinny** already posted. Thrice. Feh 😉 Let me add that if war memorials are your thing, you _have_ to visit **Margraten** , a tiny town 10 kilometers from **Maastricht** , in the utter south of the Netherlands. It’s a 2 hour drive from Brussels, as reference. Margraten has one of the largest European burial sites for Allied Soldiers who fell during WWII. Mostly, the soldiers buried there are American and Canadian. About **9,000** of them. I used to live in Maastricht, and visited the cemetary often. It is one of the most quiet and peaceful spots in the Netherlands. Food: in addition to the _Hollandse Nieuwe_, also treat yourself to a _Broodje Kroket_. Just print this out and show it in any snackbar, they’ll know 😃 My personal taste is with mayonaise, but Skinny’s gonna drop in to say you need to opt for the mustard version. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2000, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/15 "2000-12-04T11:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **Coldfire said:** > My personal taste is with mayonaise, but Skinny’s gonna drop in to say you need to opt for the mustard version. Oh well. [1984] There is no _broodje kroket_ with mayonnaise. There never was a _broodje kroket_ with mayonnaise. [/1984] You can get a _broodje kroket_ with mustard anywhere, by the way. And a _patatje stoof mèt_ (puh-tot-ya stove met) ain’t bad either (fries & beef stew & mayonnaise). Another treat springs to mind (and this one disgusts even me): _zure zult_. Since it’s nearly lunch time over here, I won’t elaborate. To hell with it, skip lunch if you have to: minced pig’s brains (and other leftovers). ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2000, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/16 "2000-12-04T11:31:43Z")
Ah, how uninformed! It’s minced pig _cheeks_ and _snouts_, actually. And it’s delicious, IMHO. What kind of _Brabander_ are you?? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2000, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-france-belgium-netherlands-anyone/43385/17 "2000-12-04T12:37:32Z")
Well, in that case, I’ll have a bucket full of ground-up pig’s cheeks and snouts. Yummy. I’m the kind of _Brabander_ that has enough sense **not** to eat minced pigface. 😃