# "Northern Ireland" is a separate country, its not a description. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901 "2012-07-01T14:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/41 "2012-07-02T16:32:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > To be fair, the word “northern” usually is a description. I can’t think of any other examples where “Northern” or “Southern” or “Eastern” or “Western” (as opposed to “North” or “South” or “East” or “West”) is part of the official name of a political entity (like a country, state, or city). Western Virginia is east of West Virginia. America, what a country! ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/42 "2012-07-02T16:33:05Z")
Like **Simplicio** said, piling on someone who is from another part of the world entirely not politically or culturally connected to the UK seems a bit mean. In a certain context such a scenario would be an exemplar of ignorance, and in another, an example of how difficult it can be to understand geopolitical divisions if one is not from that region, or politically/culturally connected to it. Hell, I lived in the UK for a decade, and it took me a while to understand the difference between Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and England. As a youngster, I also thought it was strange that people who spoke the same language and were seemingly very similar were trying to blow each other up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/43 "2012-07-02T16:35:09Z")
I think it’s just because the other half was to be called Southern Ireland (though it never actually became so). Since it comprises not just the south but most of the middle and some of the north, it would have been weird to call it “South Ireland”. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/44 "2012-07-02T16:43:17Z")
This is not the inflammatory political rant I had hoped for. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/45 "2012-07-02T16:46:40Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Like **Simplicio** said, piling on someone who is from another part of the world entirely not politically or culturally connected to the UK seems a bit mean. In a certain context such a scenario would be an exemplar of ignorance, and in another, an example of how difficult it can be to understand geopolitical divisions if one is not from that region, or politically/culturally connected to it. > > Hell, I lived in the UK for a decade, and it took me a while to understand the difference between Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and England. As a youngster, I also thought it was strange that people who spoke the same language and were seemingly very similar were trying to blow each other up. The Qatari lady, sure. Not the case with the Pakistanis who oversaw the whole thing. Especially in a law firm. In a country whose legal system is based on that of England and Wales. Where the UK constitution is a major part of the first year law school course. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/46 "2012-07-02T16:55:19Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Why would you need a UK visa? I thought they were issued at the airport. Shows what I know. Personal / vacation visas are issued at the airport. A business visa is another matter. A few years ago, the winner of one of the seasons of _Hell’s Kitchen_ was promised, as the prize, a job as a chef at one of Gordon Ramsay’s restaurants in London. OOPS - apparently, the UK had just changed its visa laws, and had started to get really tough on people applying for jobs in the UK where there were already enough people there who could do the same job; as a result, the winner couldn’t get a visa to work there. Supposedly, the show’s producers gave the winner some alternate prize. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/47 "2012-07-02T17:04:45Z")
I might go start an IMHO poll over this, but I’ll start here. Is it not commonly known that when people say “the UK” or “United Kingdom” that it is short for “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” I know that countries often have full, formal names that aren’t well known, but I thought that the UK one was pretty obvious. Kind of like how most people probably know that “US” or “United States” is short for The United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/48 "2012-07-02T17:08:18Z")
It’s commonly known (in the US and elsewhere) that “UK” is an abbreviation of “United Kingdom”. It’s not commonly known that it’s an abbreviation for “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. Most non-Britons tend to think “UK” and “Great Britain” are interchangeable - even the ones who know Northern Ireland is part of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/49 "2012-07-02T17:18:01Z")
Probably isn’t helped by the fact that Northern Ireland is variously referred to as Ulster, the Six Counties, the north of Ireland, the province etc. by people north and south. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/50 "2012-07-02T17:20:00Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Is it not commonly known that when people say “the UK” or “United Kingdom” that it is short for “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” No, it’s not: I agree with **Really Not All That Bright**. > [@](#): > > Kind of like how most people probably know that “US” or “United States” is short for The United States of America. But it’s not at all uncommon for people to actually refer to “the United States of America” or “the USA.” I can’t remember ever hearing anyone refer to “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,” in an informal context. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/51 "2012-07-02T18:13:14Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Send her to New London, Connecticut. Tell her to make sure she goes boating on the Thames. Fun fact: In Connecticut it’s called ‘thaims’ as the English river used to be called. The US one was named before George I took power and couldn’t pronounce TH. Americans apparently didn’t feel obliged to change just because some fop over the pond had a speech impediment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/52 "2012-07-02T18:18:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s commonly known (in the US and elsewhere) that “UK” is an abbreviation of “United Kingdom”. It’s not commonly known that it’s an abbreviation for “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. Most non-Britons tend to think “UK” and “Great Britain” are interchangeable - even the ones who know Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Now that I think of it, _I_ didn’t even know that until I was about 8 or 9, and happened to notice it on the front of my passport. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/53 "2012-07-02T18:57:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Fun fact: In Connecticut it’s called ‘thaims’ as the English river used to be called. The US one was named before George I took power and couldn’t pronounce TH. Americans apparently didn’t feel obliged to change just because some fop over the pond had a speech impediment. Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that the river pronunciation has changed that dramatically. Wiki doesn’t mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/54 "2012-07-02T19:31:55Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Probably isn’t helped by the fact that Northern Ireland is variously referred to as Ulster, the Six Counties, the north of Ireland, the province etc. by people north and south. Didn’t Michael Collins call it Northeast Ulster? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/55 "2012-07-02T19:42:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Now that I think of it, _I_ didn’t even know that until I was about 8 or 9, and happened to notice it on the front of my passport. This is very surprising to me! Thanks for sharing 🙂 I guess in the US, we all say the pledge of allegience from before we can remember, which includes the words “of the United States of America.” I guess I figured that there was something similar in the UK. So now, I have to ask… what percentage of ADULT Britons don’t know what the full, formal name of the UK is? What would your guess be? I just find this ignorance at least a bit coincidental because of the fact that someone was unaware that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but it’s in the name of the state itself 😃 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/56 "2012-07-02T20:01:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > But rebellious Scots are still being crushed, right? Well, if the SNP has its way, then maybe England can revive that verse instead of pussyfooting around it. As far as I know, the Danish King’s song still threatens both the helms and brains of those damned Goths. > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Probably isn’t helped by the fact that Northern Ireland is variously referred to as Ulster, the Six Counties, the north of Ireland, the province etc. by people north and south. Maybe claiming a unified Ireland does not fit the current reality, but those who claim that NI = Ulster ignore the fact that there are 3 other counties in Ulster, in the Republic though. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/57 "2012-07-02T20:28:58Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Well, if the SNP has its way, then maybe England can revive that verse instead of pussyfooting around it. As far as I know, the Danish King’s song still threatens both the helms and brains of those damned Goths. > > Maybe claiming a unified Ireland does not fit the current reality, but those who claim that NI = Ulster ignore the fact that there are 3 other counties in Ulster, in the Republic though. Yeah but the discriptor Ireland doesn’t usually imply the entirety of what is known as Ireland either. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/58 "2012-07-02T20:55:48Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I agree that it being called “North **ern** ” instead of “North” might be a big part of why people don’t know it’s a political entity. > > Is there a reason behind it not being called “North Ireland”? Not that there really has to be one. I am not sure if it is any sort of answer to your question, but one further confounding factor is that that Northern Ireland does not include the northernmost part of the island of Ireland. That is in County Donegal, which is part of the Republic. (It is also part of the historic province of Ulster, a name frequently but misleadingly used as an informal synonym for Northern Ireland.) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/59 "2012-07-02T21:46:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that the river pronunciation has changed that dramatically. Wiki doesn’t mention it. What Wiki doesn’t know, well… Webster’s dictionary [\ˈtemz, ˈthāmz, ˈtāmz]([THAMES Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thames)) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/60 "2012-07-02T22:10:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What Wiki doesn’t know, well… > > Webster’s dictionary > [\ˈtemz, ˈthāmz, ˈtāmz]([THAMES Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thames)) I still don’t understand. The Thames (tems) in the UK has always had the hard “t”. I don’t know where the “th” usage came from for the CT version but I’m sure it isn’t an historical relic from the UK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=4)