# "Northern Ireland" is a separate country, its not a description. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901 "2012-07-01T14:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/61 "2012-07-02T22:30:31Z")
Thames = Th like thing, ames like James. Thames. :rolleyes: I don’t know why the English don’t know how to pronounce their own language. You should see what they do with Worcestershire, when it’s clearly supposed to be wor like worn, cester rhymes with Hester, shire rhymes with fire! eta: Sorry, hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/62 "2012-07-02T22:41:15Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you sure about that? I’ve never heard that the river pronunciation has changed that dramatically. Wiki doesn’t mention it. Sounds like American propaganda of the “we speak English the way it used to sound, it’s the English that have changed and therefore American English is more “right”” variety. I can’t find a source I’m happy to cite, but I can find many references to “Tamese” being an early reference to the river. There seems to be a suggestion that the “th” was added around the time scholars were altering spellings to reflect Greek roots they didn’t always have. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/63 "2012-07-02T22:49:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > To be fair, the word “northern” usually is a description. I can’t think of any other examples where “Northern” or “Southern” or “Eastern” or “Western” (as opposed to “North” or “South” or “East” or “West”) is part of the official name of a political entity (like a country, state, or city). So you’ve never heard of Western Australia or the Northern Territory? How about [Burkino Faso](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Upper_Volta)? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/64 "2012-07-02T23:07:00Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > That link lumps England and Wales into one subset, but doesn’t name that subset; then lumps in Scotland and calls it Great Britain. What is that small subset of just England and Wales properly called? I wondered this, too, then thought, “Britain.” “England and Wales” is clearer. > [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Thames = Th like thing, ames like James. Thames. :rolleyes: I don’t know why the English don’t know how to pronounce their own language. You should see what they do with Worcestershire, when it’s clearly supposed to be wor like worn, cester rhymes with Hester, shire rhymes with fire! > > eta: Sorry, hijack. Worce-ster-shire. Short vowels. Seems reasonable to me, as I am from a US state where it is acceptable to make any or all of the vowels in the name schwas. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/65 "2012-07-03T01:15:03Z")
Oops… > [@Johanna](#): > > North Marianas Nope, that one IS North_ **ern** _ Marianas. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/66 "2012-07-03T07:48:37Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Thames = Th like thing, ames like James. Thames. :rolleyes: I don’t know why the English don’t know how to pronounce their own language. You should see what they do with Worcestershire, when it’s clearly supposed to be wor like worn, cester rhymes with Hester, shire rhymes with fire! > > eta: Sorry, hijack. Fine, we’ll leave the hijack there. Just to say finally that I’ve worked a lot in Groton/New London and in London itself and know very well the difference in pronunciation of “Thames” but, as has been said elsewhere, it seems clear that the modern UK pronunciation “tems”, or something very similar has been around for a long time, certainly pre-dating the founding of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/67 "2012-07-03T08:03:09Z")
Which one has the leprechauns? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/68 "2012-07-03T08:35:50Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Which one has the leprechauns? Boston. US. Not Lincolnshire. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/69 "2012-07-03T08:55:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Boston. US. Not Lincolnshire. [Boston, Ireland.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_County_Clare) (I once bicycled right past this little hamlet.) ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/70 "2012-07-03T09:20:05Z")
[Pasadena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasadena,_Newfoundland_and_Labrador), Newfoundland ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/71 "2012-07-03T11:33:23Z")
Personally, I’m a big fan of [Muff in Ireland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muff,_County_Donegal) (got a keyring). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/72 "2012-07-03T12:48:09Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Personally, I’m a big fan of [Muff in Ireland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muff,_County_Donegal) (got a keyring). You can visit the Muff Diving Club there. > **[Muff Diving Club in Muff, Ireland](https://www.muffdivingclub.ie/)** > > We are the famous official Muff Diving Club based in Muff, Ireland. Membership is now open Worldwide for yourself or for a perfect present ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/73 "2012-07-03T13:36:01Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I guess in the US, we all say the pledge of allegience from before we can remember, which includes the words “of the United States of America.” > > I guess I figured that there was something similar in the UK. Nope. Feeling too lazy to search, but we’ve had threads on that subject before: the pledge of allegiance is very much a US-only thing. In other countries, similar pledges are undertaken only by people taking office, or not even. Spain would require me to swear fealty to it if I joined the Guardia Civil, to the flag if I joined the Armed Forces, and to swear or promise to uphold our laws if I was taking a government job (elected or civil servant); otherwise, not required. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/74 "2012-07-03T14:30:35Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Didn’t Michael Collins call it Northeast Ulster? Not sure but apparently he wanted NI to be all nine counties of Ulster such that it would soon have a Catholic majority. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/75 "2012-07-03T16:09:39Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Sounds like American propaganda of the “we speak English the way it used to sound, it’s the English that have changed and therefore American English is more “right”” variety. I can’t find a source I’m happy to cite, but I can find many references to “Tamese” being an early reference to the river. There seems to be a suggestion that the “th” was added around the time scholars were altering spellings to reflect Greek roots they didn’t always have. This is basically correct. Thames is an etymologically incorrect spelling, and the th- pronunciation is originally a spelling pronuciation. The -a- is historically an ah sound, but that has changed organically. Incidentally, the boundaries of “Ulster” have shifted over time, and I don’t see why a change as dramatic as the partition shouldn’t have an effect as well, but if Donegal wants to remain in Ulster, who am I to argue? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/76 "2012-07-03T19:20:51Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Is it not commonly known that when people say “the UK” or “United Kingdom” that it is short for “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” Raises hand. I thought United Kingdom was England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/77 "2012-07-03T20:11:42Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Raises hand. I thought United Kingdom was England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. It was (sort of: Wales fell under England, so "England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland). Then partition happened, and they had to adjust the name. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/78 "2012-07-03T21:15:03Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Raises hand. I thought United Kingdom was England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. Plenty of people, even in England, think this. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/79 "2012-07-03T22:02:32Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Plenty of people, even in England, think this. Nobody I know does. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/80 "2012-07-04T00:08:53Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Send her to New London, Connecticut. Tell her to make sure she goes boating on the Thames. You could tell her that if she takes the P.I.S.S. its faster… > [@gamerunknown](#): > > Try explaining to a good Orangeman that you’re from Derry, not Londonderry. Or, for that matter, to a fenian that your father threw rocks at the guys stationed a few roads down and the London accent doesn’t make me a “posh twat hun”. If she gets stopped and asked, should could always say that she was “just out for a quart of milk and minding her own business”. I hear it works well… 😉 And there are always restaurant recommendations, like “The Wee Slabber”. She can ask anyone & they’ll tell her just where to go… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=5)