# "Northern Ireland" is a separate country, its not a description. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901 "2012-07-01T14:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/81 "2012-07-04T01:00:56Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Plenty of people, even in England, think this. I could see maybe a tiny number of true idiots thinking that, but about the same number as those who think east anglia is a foreign country. It’s not as if northern ireland isn’t ever in the news, and I mean regular news including sports, not just highbrow political stuff. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/82 "2012-07-04T01:04:06Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I could see maybe a tiny number of true idiots thinking that, but about the same number as those who think east anglia is a foreign country. It’s not as if northern ireland isn’t ever in the news, and I mean regular news including sports, not just highbrow political stuff. I can’t tell you the precise number it’s just something many people I know have encountered while in England and farther afield. It’s probably a small minority of English people. I think some people with no direct connection to the island make no distinction in their heads between Ireland and Northern Ireland. It’s not a big deal and the analogy of Qatar/UAE etc. used upthread is a good one. Geographic/political ignorance is widespread. I, for one, couldn’t name all but a few English counties, and I’d have a hard time pointing out on a blank map where many major British cities are. ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/83 "2012-07-04T04:07:21Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Raises hand. I thought United Kingdom was England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland. It used to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In the 1920s, when the southern part of Ireland became the Irish Free State, and then the Republic of Ireland, it changed to UK of Great Britain and **Northern** Ireland. See the [diagram for what Great Britain is.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/British_Isles) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/84 "2012-07-04T04:40:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Nope. Feeling too lazy to search, but we’ve had threads on that subject before: the pledge of allegiance is very much a US-only thing. In other countries, similar pledges are undertaken only by people taking office, or not even. Spain would require me to swear fealty to it if I joined the Guardia Civil, to the flag if I joined the Armed Forces, and to swear or promise to uphold our laws if I was taking a government job (elected or civil servant); otherwise, not required. Some counties (I think Argentina is one) have schoolchildren start the day by singing the national anthem. Prayers may be involved in countries with a greater religious influence in public schools (England has alot of state-funded religious schools, Ontario as public Catholic school districts). AFAIK the US is the only non-totalitarian dictatorship where schoolchildren normally obliged (& their teachers) to affirm their loyalty to the state with a pledge or oath every day. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/85 "2012-07-04T11:56:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Fine, we’ll leave the hijack there. Just to say finally that I’ve worked a lot in Groton/New London and in London itself and know very well the difference in pronunciation of “Thames” but, as has been said elsewhere, it seems clear that the modern UK pronunciation “tems”, or something very similar has been around for a long time, certainly pre-dating the founding of the USA. I’ll just pop this in here, seems sort of relevant. Enjoy! 😃 Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation. I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse. I will keep you, Suzy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy. Tear in eye, your dress will tear. So shall I! Oh hear my prayer. Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it’s written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe. Hear me say, devoid of trickery, Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore, Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles, Exiles, similes, and reviles; Scholar, vicar, and cigar, Solar, mica, war and far; One, anemone, Balmoral, Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel; Gertrude, German, wind and mind, Scene, Melpomene, mankind. Billet does not rhyme with ballet, Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet. Blood and flood are not like food, Nor is mould like should and would. Viscous, viscount, load and broad, Toward, to forward, to reward. And your pronunciation’s OK When you correctly say croquet, Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve, Friend and fiend, alive and live. Ivy, privy, famous; clamour And enamour rhyme with hammer. River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb, Doll and roll and some and home. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither does devour with clangour. Souls but foul, haunt but aunt, Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant, Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger, And then singer, ginger, linger, Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge, Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age. Query does not rhyme with very, Nor does fury sound like bury. Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth. Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath. Though the differences seem little, We say actual but victual. Refer does not rhyme with deafer. Fe0ffer does, and zephyr, heifer. Mint, pint, senate and sedate; Dull, bull, and George ate late. Scenic, Arabic, Pacific, Science, conscience, scientific. Liberty, library, heave and heaven, Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven. We say hallowed, but allowed, People, leopard, towed, but vowed. Mark the differences, moreover, Between mover, cover, clover; Leeches, breeches, wise, precise, Chalice, but police and lice; Camel, constable, unstable, Principle, disciple, label. Petal, panel, and canal, Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal. Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair, Senator, spectator, mayor. Tour, but our and succour, four. Gas, alas, and Arkansas. Sea, idea, Korea, area, Psalm, Maria, but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean. Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion and battalion. Sally with ally, yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key. Say aver, but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver. Heron, granary, canary. Crevice and device and aerie. Face, but preface, not efface. Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass. Large, but target, gin, give, verging, Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging. Ear, but earn and wear and tear Do not rhyme with here but ere. Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen, Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk, Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work. Pronunciation (think of Psyche!) Is a paling stout and spikey? Won’t it make you lose your wits, Writing groats and saying grits? It’s a dark abyss or tunnel: Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale, Islington and Isle of Wight, Housewife, verdict and indict. Finally, which rhymes with enough, Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough? Hiccough has the sound of cup. My advice is to [not] give up!!! -_The Chaos_, by G. Nolst Trenite, aka Charivarius (1870-1946) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/86 "2012-07-04T12:30:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I can’t tell you the precise number it’s just something many people I know have encountered while in England and farther afield. It’s probably a small minority of English people. I think some people with no direct connection to the island make no distinction in their heads between Ireland and Northern Ireland. It’s not a big deal and the analogy of Qatar/UAE etc. used upthread is a good one. Geographic/political ignorance is widespread. I, for one, couldn’t name all but a few English counties, and I’d have a hard time pointing out on a blank map where many major British cities are. Are they actually english people though, or people in england? I mean, it’d be understandable if some immigrants or migrants didn’t know. Though there’d be a pretty high number of english people who’d probably do worse than you at placing cities on a map. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/87 "2012-07-04T12:50:45Z")
Prayers are required in all public (comprehensive, for the Brits, public means the exact opposite of what it does in the US because “public”, individually funded schools were designated as different from the parochial ones) schools in England daily. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/88 "2012-07-04T13:10:14Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > AFAIK the US is the only non-totalitarian dictatorship where schoolchildren normally obliged (& their teachers) to affirm their loyalty to the state with a pledge or oath every day. Except that since six months before Pearl Harbor plunged us into World War II, mandating that students in a tax-funded public school recite the Pledge of Allegiance has been illegal as a violation of their freedom of speech (West Virginia State Board of Education v Burdette). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/89 "2012-07-04T14:04:54Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Send her to New London, Connecticut. Tell her to make sure she goes boating on the Thames. But that would give the game away. In Connecticut they pronounce "Thames with a “soft” _th_ as in “this”, and with a long \*a]. They don’t pronounce it “TEMS” ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/90 "2012-07-04T16:12:33Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > But that would give the game away. In Connecticut they pronounce "Thames with a “soft” _th_ as in “this”, and with a long \*a]. They don’t pronounce it “TEMS” Yup. That is part of the joke, all right. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/91 "2012-07-04T16:17:29Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Prayers are required in all public (comprehensive, for the Brits, public means the exact opposite of what it does in the US because “public”, individually funded schools were designated as different from the parochial ones) schools in England daily. “State”, not “comprehensive”. Comprehensive means non-selective, not publicly funded (though comprehensive schools _are_ publicly funded). Public also doesn’t mean the _exact_ opposite of what it does here; public schools are those which are members of the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference, not all private schools. And no, not all the public schools require daily prayers, though all of them are nominally attached to the Church of England. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/92 "2012-07-04T16:22:16Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Fuck it, just [let CGPGrey explain it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10). Thanks for that. It was informative in addition to being rather entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/93 "2012-07-04T17:20:16Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Western Virginia is east of West Virginia. > > America, what a country! Actually, western Virginia is _ **south** _ of West Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Dublin11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Dublin11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dublin11)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/94 "2012-07-04T17:22:59Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Plenty of people, even in England, think this. There are thickos everywhere, though. Just look at how many people in Ireland think Brit = English. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/95 "2012-07-04T17:28:13Z")
> [@Dublin11](#): > > There are thickos everywhere, though. > Just look at how many people in Ireland think Brit = English. Yeah definitely. I posted that comment more to point out it doesn’t seem that big a deal to me if someone from beyond these islands wasn’t aware. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/96 "2012-07-04T17:31:41Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Are they actually english people though, or people in england? I mean, it’d be understandable if some immigrants or migrants didn’t know. > > Though there’d be a pretty high number of english people who’d probably do worse than you at placing cities on a map. ☹ It’d be less remarkable if a new immigrant to Britain wasn’t aware of the complicated geopolitical situation on the islands. I’m talking about actual English people. As I said above, if you don’t have ties, I just don’t think it’s on a lot of people’s radar. For example, my friend was in a bank in Middlesbrough when he emigrated and the bank clerk was flummoxed that Ireland was a different country and had a different currency. My cousin who has lived long term in Manchester has told me about numerous misunderstandings of the same nature. I’m not saying most people in Britain don’t know, just that there are plenty of people who are ignorant of the situation since the '20s. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/97 "2012-07-04T20:38:35Z")
Ireland is in most respects not treated as a foreign country so you can forgive the locals for being confused. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/98 "2012-07-04T21:03:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s commonly known (in the US and elsewhere) that “UK” is an abbreviation of “United Kingdom”. It’s not commonly known that it’s an abbreviation for “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. Most non-Britons tend to think “UK” and “Great Britain” are interchangeable - even the ones who know Northern Ireland is part of the UK. There are plenty of foreigners, like the Qataris and Pakistanis in the OP, who think that UK = United Kingdom = Great Britain = England. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I wondered this, too, then thought, “Britain.” “England and Wales” is clearer.Worce-ster-shire. Etymologically, though, it’s Wor-cester-shire. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/99 "2012-07-06T11:17:02Z")
Well she got to Belfast alright. Had the meetings. Got the work done.Due to the success of her meeting, she does now need to go to the Republic. In September. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901/100 "2012-07-06T13:19:18Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > not all the public schools require daily prayers They’re required to host a “[collective act of worship](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer#United_Kingdom)” by law. Though, as wiki points out, they don’t and the EU law supersedes it anyway. You’re correct on the “exact” opposite clarification: they’re a member of a set of the exact opposite (individually funded schools), but don’t encompass the entire set of individually funded schools. Likewise, I forgot the name of the set “state school”, which is what a comprehensive is a member of. There are government administered specialist or charter schools in both countries that have selective requirements as far as I’m aware. It’s compounded by the fact that in the US state schools refer to universities (and the US distinguishes between university and college, where in the UK a college would be for grades 11 and 12). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/northern-ireland-is-a-separate-country-its-not-a-description/626901.md?page=6)