# Norway Most, North Korea Least Democratic Country in the World. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596 "2015-04-13T21:08:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/41 "2015-04-14T14:53:12Z")
This issue was raised in one of the threads on the South Carolina shooting. I posted links that show that 20% of residents in Canada were foreign born as of the 2011 census. As well, our largest city, Toronto, hovers around 50% foreign born, one of the most diverse cities on the world. The equivalent stat for the US was 14% foreign born, as of the 2010 census. A poster from Ireland indicated that the foreign born stat there was 17%. (Posting from my phone so can’t link to that thread, but it’s still active for anyone who wants to see the links.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/42 "2015-04-14T15:00:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I can’t think of any other nation as racially diverse as the US. We have ‘white’ folks from basically every European nation, we have ‘Asians’ from every Asian nation and ‘black’ folks from every African nation. We have ‘hispanic’ folks from every central and south American nation and we have a pretty diverse number of native American tribes as well. What other nation has this level of diversity? In most nations they have something like ‘white’, ‘asian’, ‘hispanic’, ‘black’, etc but usually those groups themselves aren’t such a mixture. You don’t generally have, say, a large German population of ‘whites’ in, say, the UK…or as large a Polish, or Eastern European, or Italian or Spanish. ‘White’ in the UK generally means Scots, Irish and English (which we also have a lot of here). All of which can be said of Canada as well. > **[Ethnic origins of people in Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Canada)** > > According to the 2021 Canadian census, over 450 "ethnic or cultural origins" were self-reported by Canadians. The major panethnic origin groups in Canada are: European (52.5%), North American (22.9%), Asian (19.3%), North American Indigenous (6.1%), African (3.8%), Latin, Central and South American (2.5%), Caribbean (2.1%), Oceanian (0.3%), and Other (6%). Statistics Canada reports that 35.5% of the population reported multiple ethnic origins, thus the overall total is greater than 100%. The co... For instance, in my home province, Saskatchewan, the single largest ethnic group is Germans. > **[Demographics of Saskatchewan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saskatchewan)** > > Saskatchewan is the middle province of Canada's three Prairie provinces. It has an area of 651,900 km2 (251,700 mi2) and a population of 1,132,505 (Saskatchewanians) as of 2021. Saskatchewan's population is made of 50.3% women and 49.7% men. Most of its population lives in the Southern half of the province. > The most populous city is Saskatoon, with a population of 317,480 (2021) in the Census Metropolitan Area (CMA), followed by the province's capital, Regina, with a population of 249,217 (20... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/43 "2015-04-14T15:09:14Z")
See posts 68-70 and 81 in the thread “Do any other wealthy, developed nations etc” in GD for the links to the stats. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/44 "2015-04-14T15:12:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But that’s just going with your gut. I bet you have no idea about the immigration history of any other country. For example, Canada is showing as more diverse in that article I linked. It’s a land of immigrants as well and didn’t wipe out nearly all it’s native population like the States did. I’d need to see the actual breakdown. I’ve lived in Canada, and while I haven’t met every Canadian my own take is that ‘white’ people in Canada are mainly from Northern Europe, France and the UK, with most self identifying their ethnicity from France and the UK. ‘asian’ people in Canada were mainly self identified with China and parts of South East Asia, but mostly from China in my own experience. And the native tribes were mainly those tribes native to the area when European explorers arrived. To me, saying that 20% of Canadian’s is ‘foreign born’ doesn’t really say much about the actual diversity, nor do broad categories like ‘white’, ‘black’ and ‘asian’ or ‘hispanic’, since within those broad categories there can be a ton of diversity…or not that much, depending. Yeah, this is my ‘gut’ feeling, having been to other countries and lived in the US. Maybe, when living in Canada I just didn’t get out enough to see the large eastern European population hiding under the ‘white’ label, or the equally large Italian or Spanish population. Maybe I just missed the large Indian or Middle Eastern population in Canada hiding under the generic ‘asian’ lable, or see the large diverse population from all over central and south America, the Caribbean, Cuba etc hiding under the ‘hispanic’ label. I guess I would be shocked if Canada was actually more diverse except when you look broadly at categories of people and not at the specifics that hide under those labels. Same with the other countries in your article there. Canada, of course, IS larger than Norway and also larger than the largest US city population wise…around as large as, say, California. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/45 "2015-04-14T15:15:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > All of which can be said of Canada as well. > > [Ethnic origins of people in Canada - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Canada) > > For instance, in my home province, Saskatchewan, the single largest ethnic group is Germans. > > [Demographics of Saskatchewan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saskatchewan) Ok, that’s a cool link and I’ll need to rethink what I thought I knew. I tried to do the same thing for the US but Wiki only has a page with a bunch of sublinks and doesn’t break it down the same way. I mainly lived in and around Ottawa when I was there, but I traveled a lot in Canada at least to the larger cities. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/46 "2015-04-14T15:17:03Z")
I would say you did miss them. Living in Ottawa, as I do, it should have been impossible to miss the large Lebanese, Somalian and Eastern European contingents. Eta: though the Somalian immigration has been more of a phenomenon of the last 20 years, if you lived here before that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/47 "2015-04-14T15:17:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > See posts 68-70 and 81 in the thread “Do any other wealthy, developed nations etc” in GD for the links to the stats. Ok, will do. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/48 "2015-04-14T15:26:40Z")
Also, when we’re talking about diversity, in Canada there’s the significant fact that just under one quarter of the native born population speaks French as their native tongue; English and French are both official languages at the federal level; and the population of our second largest province is francophone, by a large majority, with constitutional guarantees. As well, our First Nations and aboriginal populations have significant constitutional guarantees. Diversity is part of Canada’s social, political and constitutional system in a way that does not exist in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/49 "2015-04-14T15:53:23Z")
That excerpt in post #7 suggests a certain incoherence in this report’s methodology. The US is faulted on the one hand for being a duopoly but also faulted on the other hand for political participation by radical perspectives like OWS and the Tea Party. Moreover, the report’s suggestions that “partisanship” (i.e., strong political views) and “popular disaffection with government” (i.e., dissent) are anti-democratic are – well, not everyone is going to share those views. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/50 "2015-04-14T16:00:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’d need to see the actual breakdown. I’ve lived in Canada, and while I haven’t met every Canadian my own take is that ‘white’ people in Canada are mainly from Northern Europe, France and the UK, with most self identifying their ethnicity from France and the UK. But this illustrates the point that divisions in society are contextual. In the United States, there’s no serious divide between people of French ancestry and people of English or German ancestry - they probably all consider themselves European-Americans. But in Canada, the divide between French-Canadians and Anglo-Canadians is a major issue. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/51 "2015-04-14T16:07:16Z")
Largely because a great number of Canadians of French ancestry speak French as their mother tongue, and that difference is foundational to Canada’s existence, in a way that people in the US who have a non-English mother tongue is not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/52 "2015-04-14T18:36:56Z")
Speaking of language, I wonder how many words North Koreans have for “hungry”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/53 "2015-04-14T19:20:42Z")
None, of course. There is no hunger in North Korea. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/54 "2015-04-14T19:33:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Officially, the United States is a “democracy in a republic.” No it isn’t. It’s a Federal Presidential Constitutional Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/55 "2015-04-14T19:51:09Z")
Where does it say that in the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/56 "2015-04-14T19:54:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > None, of course. There is no hunger in North Korea. 😉 [However, in the United States](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RlgyQ9EDCQ) … ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/57 "2015-04-15T08:03:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > This may be a significant factor. In a parliamentary system, the party which wins the election normally can get its platform enacted, which is a strong democratic value: the people know that a vote for Party X means that Party X’s policies will become law if that party forms a government. There’s not the gridlock that can happen in congressional system. (This value is weakened in a system which generally returns minority governments, which require some type of coalitions, but I think is still a strong democratic value.) I think so too. > [@](#): > > Not so for Canada: the Senate can defeat any bill, even money bills. However, it rarely does so, because it lacks the political authority of the Commons. It only has a suspensory power over constitutional amendments, however. Well, yes, that was what I meant. Canada’s Senate’s _de jure_ powers differ from its _de facto_ powers, so in reality it’s mainly a delaying and amending chamber. > [@](#): > > Not so for Canada. At the national level, there have only been three referendums since Confederation in 1867, and each was a one-off. The two referenda in Quebec were extraordinary, on whether to separate. Quebec has never had a referendum on what you might call ordinary legislative matters. Direct citizen initiatives (ie where the citizens vote to enact legislation, as in California and Switzerland) are unconstitutional, at both the federal and provincial level. Ah ok, happily corrected 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/58 "2015-04-15T11:08:19Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Well, yes, that was what I meant. Canada’s Senate’s _de jure_ powers differ from its _de facto_ powers, so in reality it’s mainly a delaying and amending chamber. Fair enough, but there have been cases where the Senate has rejected major bills. For example, Canada does not have any federal laws on abortion, because [the Senate rejected the government’s proposed abortion legislation in 1991, which had passed the Commons as a government measure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada#Attempts_at_a_new_law). That was the first time the Senate had outright rejected a government bill in 50 years, but it shows it can happen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/59 "2015-04-15T11:15:40Z")
One can quiblle with the criteria, but the study does provide useful comparisons. It seems interesting that Iran and Saudi Arabia both rank very close to the bottom. Comparing 2012 with 2014, Fiji was by far the biggest winner, with several other countries improving a lot, including Uzbekistan, Myanmar, Mali, Belarus, Tunisia. There were three huge losers over the same two-year period: Egypt, Libya, Thailand. Thailand, understandably, sunk from Flawed Democracy to Hybrid Regime. (I think, however, that there’s widespread sentiment here that governance has improved and corruption is waning.) Over the 8-year period 2006-2014 the biggest winners are Tunisia, Bhutan, Libya; big losers include Russia, Ukraine, Madagascar, Gambia, Palestine. Debate over the criteria, or the definition of “democracy,” would be interesting, but I find comments in the thread … odd. Although it may not be Webster’s definition, I think democracy implies equal access to justice, etc., things which are certainly not guaranteed by “majority rule.” Nitpicking things like electoral college versus popular vote is odd, but even worse is the claim that “popular disaffection with government” does not suggest poor democracy. An expected outcome of democracy is satisfaction with government; to assume the opposite is to take the upside-down Reaganite view … a view which, IMHO, has led America downward to increasingly bad (and “undemocratic”) governance. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596/60 "2015-04-15T20:39:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One can quiblle with the criteria, but the study does provide useful comparisons. It seems interesting that Iran and Saudi Arabia both rank very close to the bottom. > > Comparing 2012 with 2014, Fiji was by far the biggest winner, with several other countries improving a lot, including Uzbekistan, Myanmar, Mali, Belarus, Tunisia. There were three huge losers over the same two-year period: Egypt, Libya, Thailand. Thailand, understandably, sunk from Flawed Democracy to Hybrid Regime. (I think, however, that there’s widespread sentiment here that governance has improved and corruption is waning.) > > Over the 8-year period 2006-2014 the biggest winners are Tunisia, Bhutan, Libya; big losers include Russia, Ukraine, Madagascar, Gambia, Palestine. > > Debate over the criteria, or the definition of “democracy,” would be interesting, but I find comments in the thread … odd. Although it may not be Webster’s definition, I think democracy implies equal access to justice, etc., things which are certainly not guaranteed by “majority rule.” Nitpicking things like electoral college versus popular vote is odd, but even worse is the claim that “popular disaffection with government” does not suggest poor democracy. An expected outcome of democracy is satisfaction with government; to assume the opposite is to take the upside-down Reaganite view … a view which, IMHO, has led America downward to increasingly bad (and “undemocratic”) governance. I was looking for observations and comments such as yours, why some countries are ranked where they are rather than if the U.S is a real democracy and how it compares. Which is fine, people take away from this report based on their perspective. Plus the U.S is among the small list of 24 countries with strong democracies, out of 170 nations. So it is doing well, can improve. Of the Arab Spring nations, Tunisia has consistently been the strongest performer, it is now a Flawed Democracy, whereas four years ago it was an authoritarian regime. Libya saddens me, overall it’s score has improved vastly since Muammar Gaddafi’s death. It had been a hybrid regime last report, but has slide down to the authoritarian regime section. I blame this on the chaotic political situation, the country has two competing governments, an internationally recognized one based in Tobruk and other non recognized one in the capital Tripoli. Hopefully a deal will be struck and political situation improves and the militias are reigned in. Libya did very well after Gaddafi’s demise. Egypt I can understand, since the last ranking there was a coup against a democratically elected government. Iraq seems to be doing not bad regionally, considering how violent a place it is and despite the ISIS onslaught. But the elections were good and it’s ranking has been consistent in the Hybrid section since 2006, with a slight increase in score. Hey it’s the only credit I will give to Bush, Iraq has not returned to Saddam Hussein style dictatorship despite all else going wrong. I would have expected Nigeria to at least score in the Hybrid, but no it is still authoritarian. Who knows maybe next time with the recent successful elections for president, it will reflect on it’s future rankings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norway-most-north-korea-least-democratic-country-in-the-world/717596.md?page=4)