# Norwegian Women Raped in UAE; She is Sentenced to 16 Months **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 19, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989 "2013-07-19T23:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/121 "2013-07-22T19:23:37Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Because we don’t feel like letting the terrorists win? Because my mother, grandmother and great grandmother fought long and hard so that I could fully join public life and earn my place at the table in business, and I’m not about to let rapists and their apologists close off avenues for growth and prosperity to my gender. UAE is a big deal in some industries, including my own, and refusing to go there does cut off advancement. It would be a dishonor to all who came before me to let that go unchallenged. > > The woman involved went through some very shitty experiences, but look at what she’s done to expose the problem and create international pressure. That is how change happens. She has done squat. Her ethnicity has gotten her out of a spot. And its not going to change anything. Change comes when locals want it, not when outsiders from former imperial powers try to enforce it, or have you learnt nothing from Iraq and Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/122 "2013-07-22T20:11:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > England and Wales for one. Uptil the mid 70’s it was not unknown for rape victims to be called common prostitutes and for them to be arrested. Usually as a tactic to get them to shut up. Would you have cites/sources? Not that I disbelieve you, but it would be interesting to read in more detail. Google is proving to be hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/123 "2013-07-22T21:47:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > She has done squat. Her ethnicity has gotten her out of a spot. And its not going to change anything. Change comes when locals want it, not when outsiders from former imperial powers try to enforce it, or have you learnt nothing from Iraq and Afghanistan? International embarrassment is a great driver of internal change, and can do a lot to mobilize and unite internal opposition. Just look at how one widely publicized incident has rocked gender in India. While an outsider cannot create change from whole cloth, they often have access to power, privilege and rights that allow them to be good partners to local people looking for change. When I was in China, I certainly wasn’t in any position to foster democracy. But as an outsider, I was free to answer blunt questions about Tiennanmen Square knowing that the worst thing that would happen would be getting kicked out, as opposed to the jail time that kept my colleagues responses constrained. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/124 "2013-07-22T22:05:36Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > International embarrassment is a great driver of internal change, and can do a lot to mobilize and unite internal opposition. Just look at how one widely publicized incident has rocked gender in India. Cite that international embarrassment had much, if anything, to do with Indian reaction in the case(I assume you’re talking about the Delhi gang rape)? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/125 "2013-07-22T22:50:52Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > International embarrassment is a great driver of internal change, and can do a lot to mobilize and unite internal opposition. Just look at how one widely publicized incident has rocked gender in India. While an outsider cannot create change from whole cloth, they often have access to power, privilege and rights that allow them to be good partners to local people looking for change. When I was in China, I certainly wasn’t in any position to foster democracy. But as an outsider, I was free to answer blunt questions about Tiennanmen Square knowing that the worst thing that would happen would be getting kicked out, as opposed to the jail time that kept my colleagues responses constrained. Of course!:rolleyes: Its because foreigners caused embarrassment. It cannot be due to the fact that the gangrape is a longstanding India-wide nay subcontinent wide problem and has been dealt with by [Indian Courts for decades](http://indiankanoon.org/search/?formInput=gang%20rape) can it? Nor do I think external pressure can have any thing but the most cosmetic change. Indeed, IMO it tends to cause people to become defensive especially if it comes with criticism of the highly charmingly ignorant variety, such as has been seen in abundance in this thread (to be fair, people are usually very ignorant and “funny foreigner” plays well".) Look at segregation in your own country. It was quite embarrassing whenever it was displayed overseas, hell they were essentially writing the Soviets propaganda for them. It harmed foreign relations, especially when the US wanted to get the support of newly emerging countries, but had to explain that in large parts of the US, citizens of those countries would be discriminated against on the basis of their ethnicity. Do you really think foreign pressure had much (except in the most general terms) to do with the end of segregation in the US? Finally I think their is one thing that regrettably many people in western countries fail to grasp. Other People hold their values just a dearly as you do your own. Their culture, traditions, way of life are highly precious to them. As more and more of these countries become contenders and players in global affairs, you (and everyone else) are going to have to deal with them as equals. And that means living with (not necessarily accepting) certain aspects that you find weird, appalling, barbaric etc. The days of extra territoriality in China, colonies in South and West Asia are gone. Tony Blair is a man with whom I disagree a lot but he said one thing right. UAE and other countries like it are going to demand a seat at the table, warts and all. If they do not get it, they will make their own table. So, boycotting and or refusing to go on a matter of principle is not going to hurt the, ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/126 "2013-07-22T23:01:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I can come up with several Western countries where women would have been jailed if they’d been dumb enough to report rape, just within the last century, Bullshit. You are making this up, or someone else is. > [@Nava](#): > > but you see, the locals weren’t that dumb and the amount of foreigners was tiny (specially the amount of foreigners who had nationalities, social status and ideologies which would have led them to trust the police). Incoherent. What the hell are you talking about? > [@Nava](#): > > Nowadays we don’t get jailed for reporting rape, but we run the risk of being told that if we wore jeans it wasn’t rape, if we wore a skirt it wasn’t rape, if the non-jeans trousers didn’t get ripped off it wasn’t rape… More bullshit. Get out of here. I will grant that Western prosecution and conviction rates for rape are probably far too low. That is nothing like jailing the victim, though, and people like you really do need to develop a sense of proportion, and appreciate the not slightly but vastly superior freedoms and protections the Western systems afford. It is not close, and the gap in not narrowing. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/127 "2013-07-23T00:05:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Of course!:rolleyes: Its because foreigners caused embarrassment. It cannot be due to the fact that the gangrape is a longstanding India-wide nay subcontinent wide problem and has been dealt with by [Indian Courts for decades](http://indiankanoon.org/search/?formInput=gang%20rape) can it? International pressure is not the main factor, but the level of publicity both nationally and internationally (enhanced by the organizing power of social media) is indeed a major part in why people are finally taking to the streets now, and why the activists who have been working on this for decades are finally being taken seriously. It’s not a coincidence that the case that broke the camel’s back involves a young woman who was very much an image of prosperous, foward-looking, modern india. Violent gang rapes unfortunately happen quite often in rural and poor areas with relatively little notice. It took a case that brought the ugly brutality into the realm of middle class people and their self-image to get people in power to start doing something about it. > [@](#): > > Look at segregation in your own country. It was quite embarrassing whenever it was displayed overseas, hell they were essentially writing the Soviets propaganda for them. It harmed foreign relations, especially when the US wanted to get the support of newly emerging countries, but had to explain that in large parts of the US, citizens of those countries would be discriminated against on the basis of their ethnicity. Do you really think foreign pressure had much (except in the most general terms) to do with the end of segregation in the US? 2013 is _just a smidgen_ more globalized than the 1960s, don’t you think? Having all your business immediately put up for debate by everyone from Zimbabwe to Mongolia via Twitter is just a little different than the way we got information on global affairs back then, when even making a phone call overseas was obscenely expensive. Having national prosperity entirely dependent on global trade is a bit different than the relatively inward focused economy of the 1960s. An increasingly multilateral world with new power players is just a bit different than Cold War politics. A better metaphor might be our embarrassing wars. Thanks in part to how they’ve eroded our reputation and our role in the global economy, I think Americans have lost a bit of the stomach for the “turn sand into glass” mentality. > [@](#): > > Finally I think their is one thing that regrettably many people in western countries fail to grasp. Other People hold their values just a dearly as you do your own. Their culture, traditions, way of life are highly precious to them. As more and more of these countries become contenders and players in global affairs, you (and everyone else) are going to have to deal with them as equals. And that means living with (not necessarily accepting) certain aspects that you find weird, appalling, barbaric etc. The days of extra territoriality in China, colonies in South and West Asia are gone. Tony Blair is a man with whom I disagree a lot but he said one thing right. UAE and other countries like it are going to demand a seat at the table, warts and all. If they do not get it, they will make their own table. So, boycotting and or refusing to go on a matter of principle is not going to hurt the, People have their own values, for sure. But countries are not a hive mind where everyone agrees on some static cultural ideal. Every country encompasses a wide variety of opinions and there are plenty of people in the UAE who find this case as weird, appalling and barbaric as I do. “Culture” is not some unalterable object. It’s something that people create and recreate every day by living it, and there will always be people who work towards more freedom, more justice, more prosperity and more compassion. I see no problem with supporting those people in my own country or anywhere else they happen to be. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/128 "2013-07-23T00:55:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Look at segregation in your own country. It was quite embarrassing whenever it was displayed overseas, hell they were essentially writing the Soviets propaganda for them. It harmed foreign relations, especially when the US wanted to get the support of newly emerging countries, but had to explain that in large parts of the US, citizens of those countries would be discriminated against on the basis of their ethnicity. Do you really think foreign pressure had much (except in the most general terms) to do with the end of segregation in the US? Actually I just read an article, I think in _The New Yorker_, which made the point that one of the main reasons Lyndon Johnson was so much in favor of civil rights legislation was because he wanted America to look good in front of the Soviets. Other people had their own incentives but that was a big one for him. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/129 "2013-07-23T02:09:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Your impression is wrong.](http://www.timeoutdubai.com/knowledge/features/27931-uae-law-explained#.UerRe21BJEM) Why not find out the truth instead of speculating? If you’re a non-Muslim, you can drink legally in Dubai as long as the club is allowed to sell alcohol. It’s not tolerated with a wink and a nod, it’s _legal and regulated_. If you are a visitor this is true. If you live there you need an alcohol license. I lived in Dubai for 3 years (but don’t drink). ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/130 "2013-07-23T02:22:19Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Bullshit. > > You are making this up, or someone else is. > > Incoherent. What the hell are you talking about? > > More bullshit. Get out of here. This is out of line for MPSIMS…you can use the Pit if you want to call other people liars. Since you’ve been modded for this before (a few times), this is a warning. Your posting privileges will be discussed by the rest of the staff. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/131 "2013-07-23T10:49:01Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > International pressure is not the main factor, but the level of publicity both nationally and internationally (enhanced by the organizing power of social media) is indeed a major part in why people are finally taking to the streets now, and why the activists who have been working on this for decades are finally being taken seriously. It’s not a coincidence that the case that broke the camel’s back involves a young woman who was very much an image of prosperous, foward-looking, modern india. Violent gang rapes unfortunately happen quite often in rural and poor areas with relatively little notice. It took a case that brought the ugly brutality into the realm of middle class people and their self-image to get people in power to start doing something about it. Yeah, I agree with a lot of things you’re saying, but the only thing that “international” has to do with it is the fact that you’ve slipped it into your paragraph. The only reason the case ever gained international publicity is the heat and light it generated in India. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/132 "2013-07-23T11:42:18Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Would you have cites/sources? Not that I disbelieve you, but it would be interesting to read in more detail. Google is proving to be hopeless. The excellent (but depressing) film[The Magdalene Sisters chronicles](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magdalene_Sisters) the true stories of young (mainly teen) women in 1960s Ireland who got pregnant and were forced to give up their babies and be incarcerated indefinitely in a workhouse run by nuns. The film begins with one of them bring raped by her male cousin; the cousin apparently was unpunished, but the victim was incarcerated. So, that was the story for at least some of the “fallen women.” The DVD includes recent interviews with several of the real women. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/133 "2013-07-23T11:58:11Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The excellent (but depressing) film[The Magdalene Sisters chronicles](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magdalene_Sisters) the true stories of young (mainly teen) women in 1960s Ireland who got pregnant and were forced to give up their babies and be incarcerated indefinitely in a workhouse run by nuns. The film begins with one of them bring raped by her male cousin; the cousin apparently was unpunished, but the victim was incarcerated. So, that was the story for at least some of the “fallen women.” The DVD includes recent interviews with several of the real women. I followed that to the article on the actual [Magdalene asylums](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum) Those are interesting, and, as you say, distressing examples of women mistreated by society and their families. Not precisely the same as them being jailed for making rape accusations by the state though. It does go towards making the larger point that rape victims tend to be treated pretty horribly by most societies, and I suppose that point doesn’t really need belabouring. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/134 "2013-07-23T12:05:36Z")
Agreed. It’s a continuum of misogyny. Some societies are better than others in this regard, and at different times in their history. Clearly, some Islam-infused legal systems are shockingly bad in this – but that doesn’t mean everyone else is perfect, and the point of that film is to show how, surprisingly recently, an English-speaking Western European country had some (not all) of the blame-the-victim mentality so blatant in the current case described by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/135 "2013-07-23T13:11:15Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I followed that to the article on the actual [Magdalene asylums](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum) Those are interesting, and, as you say, distressing examples of women mistreated by society and their families. Not precisely the same as them being jailed for making rape accusations by the state though. It does go towards making the larger point that rape victims tend to be treated pretty horribly by most societies, and I suppose that point doesn’t really need belabouring. The Magdalene Sisters business occurred primarily in Ireland (I think there were similar activities in the Australian Magdalene Sisters operation) and it was a purely Catholic thing, too. I’ll grant you, when the Catholics get power, bad things tend to happen – just look at the Hayes Code era or the current Supreme Court here in the US – but we’re really a long way, as a society, from anything like that happening. The US’s moral issue is more a matter of not giving a damn about poor people, and giving way too much to the wealthy. But that’s capitalism for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/136 "2013-07-23T13:12:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > She has done squat. Her ethnicity has gotten her out of a spot. And its not going to change anything. Change comes when locals want it, not when outsiders from former imperial powers try to enforce it, or have you learnt nothing from Iraq and Afghanistan? It might not come because foreigners are clucking their tongues on Twitter, but sometimes it comes when foreigners are withholding investment. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/137 "2013-07-23T13:22:47Z")
I’m pretty offended that somehow it’s the International Community who is “fixing” India. Fuck that noise. In agreement with AK84 and others, it is _India_ that has been trying to drag the backwards portion of their civilization forwards for a loooong time. Need I remind everyone once again - India has had its independence for less than 100 years now. Britain ruled it for, like 400 years. They thought Indians were monkeys, barely above the blacks. That being said, you won’t catch me dead in the UAE either. I’m even hesitant to visit India alone. I have no need to use my body to make a point. It is not open season on my vagina. Also agreed that any religious theocracy will end up going down the same road…it’s endemic to religion. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/138 "2013-07-23T15:26:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It might not come because foreigners are clucking their tongues on Twitter, but sometimes it comes when foreigners are withholding investment. How likely is that to happen because of issues like this one? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/139 "2013-07-23T15:33:29Z")
I’m far from an expert on the Emirati economies but I suspect they have no need of foreign investment (until the oil runs out, when there will be nothing to invest in anyway.) India might be a different story. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989/140 "2013-07-23T15:43:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The US’s moral issue is more a matter of not giving a damn about poor people, and giving way too much to the wealthy. But that’s capitalism for ya. I’ve told you before, and I’ll tell you again, not that it will make a difference, but I’ve grown up in India, and not a week goes by that I don’t wish we’d turned towards capitalism and not state-led socialism in our early post-independent history. The extra suffering that literally hundreds of millions of people(read that again and try and feel it - people tend to lose the emotional impact when it comes to really big numbers) would have avoided and have been avoiding now is massive. It almost makes arguments against capitalism immoral. The arguments come from a good place - the desire to give a damn about people who are not well off - but moving away from capitalism takes you to a bad place, where all those people you give a damn about, and others besides, end up worse off. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m far from an expert on the Emirati economies but I suspect they have no need of foreign investment (until the oil runs out, when there will be nothing to invest in anyway.) India might be a different story. No, I meant how likely are people to withhold investment due to issues like this one? Not at all I’d wager [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/norwegian-women-raped-in-uae-she-is-sentenced-to-16-months/663989.md?page=8)