# NO's problems were really caused by the "welfare state" attitudes of the homeless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388 "2005-09-06T19:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/1 "2005-09-06T19:14:56Z")
So says this guy [the Intellectual Activist.](http://www.intellectualactivist.com/) He has different take on the roots of the bad behavior after the disaster. Does his perspective have any validity at all? [An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State]An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State - by Robert Tracinski Sep 02, 2005]([http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026](http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026)) > [@](#): > > Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists—myself included—did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting. > > But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster. > > The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong. > > The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view. > > The man-made disaster is the welfare state. > > For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency—indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/2 "2005-09-06T19:25:01Z")
New Orleans’ problems were caused by a failure of the levee. I thought everyone knew that. The “intellectual activists” arguments don’t merit the dignity of a response. And may I mention a pet peeve: When did the “law of the jungle, everyone for himself” type libertarians gain posession of the word “reason?” Their positions don’t seem any more rational than anyone else’s. In fact they seem born out of a snarling atavism. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/3 "2005-09-06T19:43:25Z")
It’s called “compassionate conservatism,” I think. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/4 "2005-09-06T19:49:59Z")
When I was a kid our family was on welfare for a while. The only thing I’m bitter about is that there was never a disaster in our city so that we could have done some looting. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/5 "2005-09-06T19:52:07Z")
Yup, the OP’s link is classic “blame-the-victim” rhetoric. It pretty much ignores the fact that the vast majority of people trapped in flooded New Orleans were **not** committing violent crimes. Many of them, in fact, were doing all they could to take care of themselves and other people so that they could be rescued. Tracinski, though, wants to reduce the situation to a simplistic tale of predatory criminals and irresponsible parasites helpless without their government handouts. (All black, natch.) Pretty easy to do, as long as you don’t really care about facts. At least Tracinski is fairly honest about the imaginary basis of his conclusions: > [@](#): > > My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage one night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. […] > > What Sherri was getting from last night’s television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of “the projects.” Yeah, I’m getting a familiar “whiff” of Tracinski on a “sense-of-life level” too, and you wanna guess what it smells like? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/6 "2005-09-06T20:25:05Z")
Nothing like basing one’s conclusions on television reporting; TV always tells it like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/7 "2005-09-06T20:33:55Z")
[Proof how well most victims helped themselves and each other](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/6/132725/8931) > [@](#): > > What you will not see, but what we witnessed,were the real heroes and sheroes of the hurricane relief effort: the working class of New Orleans. The maintenance workers who used a fork lift to carry the sick and disabled. The engineers, who rigged, nurtured and kept the generators running. The electricians who improvised thick extension cords stretching over blocks to share the little electricity we had in order to free cars stuck on rooftop parking lots. Nurses who took over for mechanical ventilators and spent many hours on end manually forcing air into the lungs of unconscious patients to keep them alive. Doormen who rescued folks stuck in elevators. Refinery workers who broke into boat yards, “stealing” boats to rescue their neighbors clinging to their roofs in flood waters. Mechanics who helped hot-wire any car that could be found to ferry people out of the City. And the food service workers who scoured the commercial kitchens improvising communal meals for hundreds of those stranded. > > … > > We decided we had to save ourselves. So we pooled our money and came up with $25,000 to have ten buses come and take us out of the City. Those who did not have the requisite $45.00 for a ticket were subsidized by those who did have extra money. We waited for 48 hours for the buses, spending the last 12 hours standing outside, sharing the limited water, food, and clothes we had. We created a priority boarding area for the sick, elderly and new born babies. We waited late into the night for the “imminent” arrival of the buses. The buses never arrived. > > … > > Our little encampment began to blossom. Someone stole a water delivery truck and brought it up to us. Let’s hear it for looting! A mile or so down the freeway, an army truck lost a couple of pallets of C-rations on a tight turn. We ferried the food back to our camp in shopping carts. Now secure with the two necessities, food and water; cooperation, community, and creativity flowered. We organized a clean up and hung garbage bags from the rebar poles. We made beds from wood pallets and cardboard. We designated a storm drain as the bathroom and the kids built an elaborate enclosure for privacy out of plastic, broken umbrellas, and other scraps. We even organized a food recycling system where individuals could swap out parts of C-rations (applesauce for babies and candies for kids!). > > This was a process we saw repeatedly in the aftermath of Katrina. When individuals had to fight to find food or water, it meant looking out for yourself only. You had to do whatever it took to find water for your kids or food for your parents. When these basic needs were met, people began to look out for each other, working together and constructing a community. So what went wrong? > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, “Get off the fucking freeway”. A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water. > > Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20 or more. In every congregation of “victims” they saw “mob” or “riot”. We felt safety in numbers. Our “we must stay together” was impossible because the agencies would force us into small atomized groups. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/8 "2005-09-06T21:56:24Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > New Orleans’ problems were caused by a failure of the levee. I thought everyone knew that. That’s not entirely true. The levee was the 2nd of 3 events. Rioting stalled the rescue efforts for at least a day, maybe 2. If they had evacuated as instructed they wouldn’t be a situation requiring rescue. A great deal of the deaths was the direct result of people choosing to remain behind during the hurricane. They lucked out when the hurricane veared East but were caught by the flood from the levee break. People completely ignored a potential level 5 hurricane. That’s like a tornado the size of Idaho. The consequences follows the act. Call it blame, call it stupidity. It happened and now the rest of the nation has to pick up the tab for those decisions. Put another way, the same money we’re sending down for rescue could be have been used to rebuild the structures lost. If it still bothers you that people find fault where fault is due then take comfort in the knowledge that we’ll still send wads of money to these rationally challenged individuals. Regardless of their reckless behavior, they are still the victims of a major disaster and need our help. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/9 "2005-09-06T22:12:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A great deal of the deaths was the direct result of people choosing to remain behind during the hurricane. Some people chose to, but many simply couldn’t afford to leave. In any case, blaming **some** of the problem on the comparatively **few** people who could have evacuated but deliberately chose not to, or who took advantage of the disorder to commit violent crimes, is reasonable. Offering a vague _argumentum ab ano_ that the whole situation is somehow the fault of “the welfare state”, as per the pseudolibertarian drivel linked in the OP, is not. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/10 "2005-09-06T22:18:36Z")
And what were the people without cars supposed to do, Magiver, walk out? I think that they would have been caught outside during the hurricane, which would be much worse than being in the Superdome. Who told them to go to the Superdome, anyway? Oh yeah, the same people who ordered the evacuation. Some people did ignore the warnings, some people always will. But, I think the blame for this is not as clear cut as you would like to think. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/11 "2005-09-06T22:40:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Some people chose to, but many simply couldn’t afford to leave. > > In any case, blaming **some** of the problem on the comparatively **few** people who could have evacuated but deliberately chose not to, or who took advantage of the disorder to commit violent crimes, is reasonable. Offering a vague _argumentum ab ano_ that the whole situation is somehow the fault of “the welfare state”, as per the pseudolibertarian drivel linked in the OP, is not. Those who couldn’t leave were supplied transportation by the city. The fact that they were taken to a shelter INSIDE THE CITY is another discussion. IMO your “comparatively few” is under-estimated. I would say from what I’ve read that at least 20% stayed behind (not including those who went to shelters). You’re also using absolutes when you say people are inferring the whole situation is the fault of the people of NO. The whole situation is a multi-state natural disaster. **Part** of the situation was the relocation of people to safety before the hurricane. This was something that was easy to do, both for the people capable of doing it, and also the city government which was capable of moving those who couldn’t leave. A tremendous amount of resources have been used for rescue when they could have been used for cleanup. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/12 "2005-09-06T22:44:51Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > And what were the people without cars supposed to do, Magiver, walk out? I think that they would have been caught outside during the hurricane, which would be much worse than being in the Superdome. Who told them to go to the Superdome, anyway? Oh yeah, the same people who ordered the evacuation. Not people, one person…Mayor Nagin. And he provided transportation. I’m not going to repost everything I’ve written on the subject so you’ll have to look it up yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/13 "2005-09-06T22:46:42Z")
A question that has been bugging me–what happened to the prisoners in the jails in NO Parish. Were they evacuated to other facilities? Do released prisoners account for any of the criminal activity? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/14 "2005-09-06T23:03:03Z")
People act in many individual ways in a crisis. Some act foolishly, some act despicably, some show great courage and generosity. The vast majority simply do what they can to save themselves and their families. This has been true for all human history, and is almost certainly true in NO. Remember when watching the news that “if it bleeds, it leads,” so you are getting a somewhat distorted picture of the crisis. Most people are just making do. The people who are acting badly represent a percentage of humans who exist everywhere and at all times. The bad acts at New Orleans were certainly not the result of some “welfare state.” This is especially ludicrous because the U.S. is not a welfare state at all. YMMV, but a genuine welfare state would make much more of an effort to provide its citizens with health care and education, as the Scandinavian states do. I don’t want to hijack this thread into an argumnent about the pros and cons of a welfare state. Whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing, the U.S. ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/15 "2005-09-06T23:03:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > A question that has been bugging me–what happened to the prisoners in the jails in NO Parish. Were they evacuated to other facilities? Do released prisoners account for any of the criminal activity? There was mention of a prison move before the hurricane struck. I think they set up a temporary facility. Probably nicer than the Superdome. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/16 "2005-09-06T23:14:13Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > A question that has been bugging me–what happened to the prisoners in the jails in NO Parish. Were they evacuated to other facilities? Do released prisoners account for any of the criminal activity? At some point (maybe 2-3 days after the hurricane), I saw a footage of a large number of prisonners on a jail roof waiting to be evacuated. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/17 "2005-09-06T23:21:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > At some point (maybe 2-3 days after the hurricane), I saw a footage of a large number of prisonners on a jail roof waiting to be evacuated. If that is true, and I see no reason to doubt it, would it not be fair to assume that at least some of the criminals committing the horrible acts were criminals already? I mean, assuming as well, that some of them were not evacuated? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/18 "2005-09-06T23:37:25Z")
One more thing From the OP’s link: > [@](#): > > There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit—but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals—and\*\* wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness.\*\* The welfare wards were a mass of sheep—on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves. My bolding. Selected? _Selected_??Is there any doubt that this self proclaimed intellectual is an unbalanced lunatic? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/19 "2005-09-07T01:14:12Z")
I don’t agree in the slightest. Humans are sheep, and people can condemn that simple fact all they want. Hell, condemning humans as sheep is a form of sheepishness as well since individualism is considered socially favored and sheepishness is considered socially inferior so by insulting people as sheep you are just condemning them for not conforming to a society that holds individualism up as a laudable trait. Its a catch 22 if you sit and think about it. Read the book ‘obedience to authority’ the vast majority of people are willing to torture someone either to death or unconsciousness just because they are told to do so. It has nothing to do with the welfare state. As far as selective breeding of lazy people, I don’t know too many lazy gang members. They are facing death daily. Besides what about all us suburban white people (the author is probably one of us) who have our K-12 educations paid for and 70% of our college educations paid for with the other 30% coming from federally backed student loans & financial aid? Are we going to go a rapin and a pillagin just because we collect about 130k in welfare for our education over our lives? Does the author with his 100k+ in education, paved roads and unemployment checks and endless consumer safety protections to protect him from himself qualify as lazy and selectively helpless? This guy is no different than the religious figures who blamed N.O. or 9/11 on gays. He is looking for a venue to push his radical, non mainstream politics on the public. And the looters were a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Donovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@Donovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donovan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2005, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/20 "2005-09-07T10:05:52Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > It’s called “compassionate conservatism,” I think. Nah, try “Objectivism” (Ayn Rand, anyone?) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388.md?page=2)