# NO's problems were really caused by the "welfare state" attitudes of the homeless **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388 "2005-09-06T19:14:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/41 "2005-09-08T15:22:28Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > What notification are you speaking of? The official evacuation order was actually given Sunday morning. In fact, if you look back at the [National Hurricane Center’s Katrina archive](http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/KATRINA.shtml?), the track forecast didn’t even predict the hurricane to go near New Orleans until 11pm EDT Friday night…and the NHS itself would tell you that such track forecasts that far in advance can have errors of several hundred miles (although in this case, their forecast track from late Friday evening on was pretty much dead on). I’m having a hard time following all these Katrina threads, however, here is some pertinent information: The AP [reports](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082700843.html) that Bush declared a state of emergency on August 26, Saturday. The govenor’s evacuation order came on Sunday. To me, this is more clear evidence that the state dropped the ball. FEMA is not without its blame, however, as their plan (or lack thereof) was well short of the intended goal. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, Katrina did not become a Category 5 hurricane until Sunday morning…in fact, it didn’t even attain Category 4 status until 1am CDT Sunday morning. At 11pm EDT Friday night, it was a Category 2 storm although they were forecasting it to become a “major hurricane” (meaning Category 3 or higher). These points are moot, imo. Everyone seemed to know (well, except those in LA, apparently) that it was going to be disasterous on Friday/Saturday, including Bush, who declared the state of emergency. Whether this is all problems innate of a welfare state is all very inconclusive. I’ve studied, briefly, the conditions of a welfare state, and it all seems to boil down to individual utility of the poor/people who remained. The poor have all too few possesions and derive utility from them (more from actual income, but that’s beside the point). Anyway, economically speaking, staying and protecting their possessions was probably worth the risk to them. Also, they probably did not have the access to communications regarding the severity and the conditions of the storm. Welfare state or not, levee conditions are a political matter, particularly when such conditions are not a majority of the economic system itself. There are only so many reasources in the budget, and sadly the people of NOLA did not have their voices heard. However, blame for this, imo, should be equally shared with the current administration as well as past administrations, as well as local officials whose job it is to lobby for these improvements. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/42 "2005-09-08T15:57:21Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#): > > These points are moot, imo. Everyone seemed to know (well, except those in LA, apparently) that it was going to be disasterous on Friday/Saturday, including Bush, who declared the state of emergency. I disagree. Everyone may have known that it **could** be disastrous…or even that it was likely to be disastrous for some area of the coast. However, they did not know it **would** be disastrous for N.O. Hell, even at 11am EDT Sunday morning, the National Hurricane forecast discussion cautioned that the average 24-hour track forecast error is about 80 nautical miles (~90-95 statute miles) (although by that time the storm was large and powerful enough that it seemed that this amount of error was not likely to be so relevant and this is probably why the evacuation order for New Orleans was issued). Those who actually live in these areas know that the “false alarm” rate is quite high. It is an unfortunate fact that weather forecasting is simply not to the point where the track and intensity of a hurricane can be forecasted well enough a day or two in advance to know with confidence if one particular place is really going to get extreme conditions. Hurricane watches and warnings are generally issued for larger areas than actually end up experiencing full hurricane conditions…let alone the full-brunt of a major hurricane. Of course, I personally would err on the side of caution. But, people with less resources (and who are naturally less cautious than me…which probably comes along with living “closer to the edge” with lots of dangers that come along with high poverty) probably can’t or won’t tend to do that. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/43 "2005-09-08T16:43:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, absolutely. That is exactly what many of them did. In fact, that is why so many people drowned. The levee breach overwhelmed them and that specific danger was known to virtually everyone on a planning level. As I type this, the Mayor is ordering them to leave and will forcibly remove those who refuse. What, are you talking about the 5-10,000 people who are _still_ there? Well, yeah. Those people are probably idiots. I’m talking about the _other_ 90% of the people stranded in the city who were ordered to leave but offered no means to do so. Do you blame _them_ for their own suffering? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/44 "2005-09-08T16:59:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Tracinski, though, wants to reduce the situation to a simplistic tale of predatory criminals and irresponsible parasites helpless without their government handouts. (All black, natch.) Pretty easy to do, as long as you don’t really care about facts. Actually I think he want to blame it on Franklin D. Roosevelt, Bill Clinton and all Democratic presidents in between. According to a satiric, fake ‘memo from Karl Rove to GW,’ the first thing to do to duck any blame is to rename “Katria.” Call it “Hillary.” GW is unable to make coherent plans himself and now it seems that he also is unable to assemble a team that can do it. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/45 "2005-09-08T18:19:38Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > I disagree. Everyone may have known that it **could** be disastrous…or even that it was likely to be disastrous for some area of the coast. However, they did not know it **would** be disastrous for N.O. Hell, even at 11am EDT Sunday morning, the National Hurricane forecast discussion cautioned that the average 24-hour track forecast error is about 80 nautical miles (~90-95 statute miles) (although by that time the storm was large and powerful enough that it seemed that this amount of error was not likely to be so relevant and this is probably why the evacuation order for New Orleans was issued). Well, I’ve never thankfully lived through a natural disaster, but ISTM that if the President is already calling a state of emergency, you better get your ass out of dodge. > [@](#): > > Those who actually live in these areas know that the “false alarm” rate is quite high. I don’t disagree with you, however, I do note that the argument will start falling into anecdotal evidence. For instance, my friend’s parents who lived no where near the destruction in LA left after everyone else started leaving; but, they left later, on Friday. Though black, they’re not poor. The point I am trying to make is that despite people’s notions of an impending disaster, warning was given. Moreover, the fact that there were those who did not leave, their decision was most likely due to a utility valuation on their part, coupled with the fact that there were no means to dispatch these people (ok, I’m unsure about exactly how many resources were available to be deployed and when and where they were actually deployed – there’s a google task for someone). Simply stated, I’m arguing that just by being poor, they were more inclined to stay where they were. Whether or not them being poor is a product of a welfare state is a different issue entirely. Many economists (I believe it is a popular contention, particularly on the macro level) believe that a welfare state does more harm than good, and perpetuates people to stay poor. However, a state, like LA, actually needs wealth to be considered a welfare state. Sadly, like many of its constituents, the state is also poor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/46 "2005-09-08T21:16:22Z")
> [@black455](#): > > What, are you talking about the 5-10,000 people who are _still_ there? > > Well, yeah. Those people are probably idiots. > > I’m talking about the _other_ 90% of the people stranded in the city who were ordered to leave but offered no means to do so. > > Do you blame _them_ for their own suffering? No, my position has always been that the Mayor failed to properly implement the plan. From the start he sent mixed signals as to how serious this was. He sounded the alarm to abandon the city but then guided people to shelters within the city. If he had just hedged his bets and relocated his network of buses to higher ground he would have had access to them in case of levee failure. I don’t absolve anyone of responsibility if they think their being led down the wrong road, regardless of financial status. I personally would have networked my way into a ride given the nature of hurricanes and a city below sea level. I can’t really argue with Jshore’s premise without doing some more research. He is of the opinion that the danger was not as severe on Saturday as it was on Sunday. That narrows the decision gap. I was following the storm at work on Saturday and it was looking grim for the Gulf Coast. It actually sparked a discussion on surviving Tornado’s and Hurricanes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/47 "2005-09-08T21:29:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Perhaps, but just because there was a _plan_, doesn’t mean they drivers were actually available. If you’ve been watching the news the Mayor insisted that the Federal Government “do something” regardless of protocol or red tape. He already had the power to do just about anything he wanted to and anyone could have been appointed to drive a bus in an emergency. If you are going to argue that they’re difficult to drive I would suggest otherwise. I don’t have a CDL license and have never driven a large vehicle until one got stuck on a chartered tour I set up. With the blessing of the driver I rocked it back and forth until I could drive it out of harms way. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/48 "2005-09-08T21:37:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you are going to argue that they’re difficult to drive I would suggest otherwise. If you are going to both ask the questions and provide the answers, what would you like me to say? The notion of 250 untrained bus drivers navigating the roads hours before a class 4 hurricane is too ridiculous to respond to anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/49 "2005-09-08T21:44:27Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Cite? There was looting, and some localized disruptions, but you make it sound like South Central was going on. There was nothing that a National Guard presence couldn’t have quickly handled. Unless the rioting problem that stalled the rescue efforts was inside the White House. > > It’s amazing how the Republican mantra of blame the victim has gently slid into the realm of flat out accusing them. I’m quoting from my local newspaper: Wednesday Aug.31: The looting grows exponentially. Thieves use a forklift to smash into one pharmacy. Blanco asks the White House to send more people. New Orleans police are called off search-and-rescue missions to combat out-of-control looting. I believe it was the Mayor who recounted police reports on how they were running out of amunition in the fire-fight. I’m not sure what/where your “South Central” refers to but New Orleans was having serious problems and it was reported on the news that it stopped rescue efforts. I’m not sure where the crack about Republican mantra’s is coming from. I’m not discounting blame on anybody. I don’t think it will be hard to piece this together once it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/50 "2005-09-08T21:53:56Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If you are going to both ask the questions and provide the answers, what would you like me to say? > > The notion of 250 untrained bus drivers navigating the roads hours before a class 4 hurricane is too ridiculous to respond to anyway. Really, The idea of 250 people with a drivers license driving down the road in a bus sounds rediculously easy to me. You’re talking to someone who’s done it and to me it was no different than driving a van. And I was operating a bus that was driver- forward of the wheels. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/51 "2005-09-08T22:01:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really, The idea of 250 people with a drivers license driving down the road in a bus sounds rediculously easy to me. [Then we don’t have anything to worry about, do we?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179089/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/52 "2005-09-09T02:02:48Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > [Then we don’t have anything to worry about, do we?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179089/) I see your point. If an $8/hr bus driver can have an accident what chance do the rest of us I have. Better to wait out a class 5 hurricane in order to avoid a possible vehicular accident. Sounds like a plan to me. Of course, if you bothered to research the bus accident you would have found out [why it crashed](http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/One-killed-in-New-Orleans-bus-accident/2005/09/03/1125302769571.html?oneclick=true). **Quote** : A bus shuttling hurricane victims out of New Orleans crashed after a passenger grew agitated and ended up in a struggle with the driver, killing one person and injuring more than a dozen. Police Captain Mark LeBlanc said that after the tussle, the driver lost control of the bus, sending it across a median and overturning on the other side of the highway, about 209 kilometres west of New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/53 "2005-09-09T02:31:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Of course, if you bothered to research the bus accident you would have found out [why it crashed](http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/One-killed-in-New-Orleans-bus-accident/2005/09/03/1125302769571.html?oneclick=true). As a matter of fact, [I did research it](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-02-katrina-buscrash_x.htm): > [@](#): > > One passenger, however, disputed accounts of a struggle causing the crash. > > Steven Francis, 32, of New Orleans, told The Associated Press as he left a hospital for a shelter that he didn’t see anyone threaten the driver or fight with him. > > The driver was looking away from the road, looking down, and swerved at the last minute to avoid another vehicle, Francis said. If you want the facts, always, _always,_ doublecheck your sources. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/54 "2005-09-09T03:37:45Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > As a matter of fact, [I did research it](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-02-katrina-buscrash_x.htm):If you want the facts, always, _always,_ doublecheck your sources. ??? You quoted from same article I posted (it was an AP article). I quoted the Police Chief, whose job it was to make a judgement on the matter. Regardless, I have first hand knowledge of how easy it is to drive a bus, which you don’t. I maneuvered a 55 passenger touring bus around trees with a group of people standing around it throwing gravel under the wheels. With the huge mirrors on either side it was easier to see what I was doing then my daily driver. Come back after you’ve tried it and tell me how hard it is and we’ll share notes. In the mean time my premise that it would be easy to supplement any missing drivers with volunteers remains the logical choice vs leaving them stranded for lack of trying. Part of dealing with an emergency is making the best choice with what you’ve got. In a city of 500,000 people, it is logical to assume you will be able to find enough school/metro bus drivers to manage any secondary organization needed. You also have commercial truckers and Fire department personnel to pool from. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/55 "2005-09-09T07:10:52Z")
“Easy to drive” as long as everyone stays in their seats and are cheerful and happy, right? And no one is frightened or separated from a loved one or sick or tired or thirsty or hungry or smelly. And if you don’t run into any water on the road…and… > [@](#): > > **mazinger\_z** : Many economists (I believe it is a popular contention, particularly on the macro level) believe that a welfare state does more harm than good, and perpetuates people to stay poor. Keep in mind that there are “welfare states” in this world where the citizens actually fare well. I was in some of the Scandanavian countries quite a few years ago and at least at that time I did not see _any_ people living in poverty at all. There was a very high standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![WonJohnSoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f17d59/32.png) [@WonJohnSoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WonJohnSoup)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/56 "2005-09-09T08:59:33Z")
Not really giving an opinion here, but just wanted to point out that charter buses and school buses aren’t the same. Never driven either one myself, but I imagine the kind of school busses in the photograph everyone is referring to are probably a lot more difficult to operate than a charter bus. I don’t know if I would even compare the two. There was mention of metro buses, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/57 "2005-09-09T10:41:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You quoted from same article I posted (it was an AP article). I quoted the Police Chief, whose job it was to make a judgement on the matter. No. police are not judges, they are investigators. and this one did not complete his investigation. Pardon me if I believe an eye witness instead of a second hand account from the bus driver who has a interest in protecting himself from any responsibility for the accident. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/58 "2005-09-09T10:49:48Z")
maybe the question should be were the bad acts a result of inadequate social welfare? As an expat euro I applaud the euro system of a welfare state. cradle to grave medicine free at the point of delivery. A safety net for disadvantaged. ( not perfect but designed to help the sick surviv with dignity) look what happens when medicine is left to market forces. research goes to keep rich old people beautiful, doesn’t go to cure sick young poor people. cite is the accepted fact that more is spent on cosmetic medicine than on cures for third world ills. okay so there may be people who decide that getting pregnant and living on welfare is an easy option. but the altenative is dog eat dog and survive at any cost. most americans have ethnic roots in other countries. escaped for a new life and to share in the american dream. can someone remind me what that dreeam is please? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388/59 "2005-09-09T21:23:32Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > No. police are not judges, they are investigators. and this one did not complete his investigation. Pardon me if I believe an eye witness instead of a second hand account from the bus driver who has a interest in protecting himself from any responsibility for the accident. Uh huh. In an emergency you’ll just have to go with your instinctive fear of buses and stay behind. I, on the other hand, will be watching you on TV from a shelter far far away. I think the Louisiana emergency plan makes sense. All it needs is someone who will follow it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nos-problems-were-really-caused-by-the-welfare-state-attitudes-of-the-homeless/320388.md?page=2)