Well, there’re not True Christians [sup]TM[/sup].
(Or Scotsmen for that matter.)
Ummm… they’re
Inari: To aid us poor heathens, how about you post here your “official” list of Christian denominations?
Who are you to argue? I don’t know. How about Jewish law and tradition?
Under Jewish law, a Jew cannot “convert” to another religion (IOW, once a Jew, always a Jew). However, WRT certain laws, a non-Jew who “converts” to another religion is treated as a non-Jew. Therefore, a Jew who “converts” can no longer be counted for a minyan, for example.
So, while they may claim that they are observing Jewish ritual, keeping the Jewish holidays and keeping kosher, in the end, if they believe that Jesus is the messiah and the literal Son of God (or part of the Trinity), then they are, for most practical purposes, no longer Jewish.
As a sidebar, there is very little that is agreed upon by Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism. One of the few things agreed upon by all branches is that belief in Jesus as the messiah/Son of God is completely outside the bounds of normative Judaism.
Zev Steinhardt
Why can’t Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah? I could sort of understand the literal Son of God/Trinity objections as that doesn’t fit in with the Jewish conception of God. But why no messiah? The disciples believed it and they were Jewish.
Jews can’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God (or part of a Trinity with God) because that constitutes idolatry under Jewish law.
Jews can’t believe that Jesus was the (earthly) messiah because he didn’t accomplish the things that a messiah was supposed to accomplish. The Jews are still living in exile, there is still war in the world, people have not beaten their swords into plowshares, etc.
Zev Steinhardt
Well, I guess it’s theoretically possible to believe that Jesus was the (earthly) messiah, and stay Jewish. At least, I don’t think that would be considered a “coversion”…it would just be strange. As another example, I think there are some Sabbateans around still. (Of course, it’s a little bit of a red herring, because most “Messianistic Jews” believe Jesus was the messiah in a Christian sense, not a Jewish one)
This is not quite accurate. The Catholic Church states that Orthodox may commune in it, and that its members may commune in Orthodox Churches, but the Orthodox disagree, i.e. Orthodox are not permitted by their Church to commune in Catholic Churches, nor may Catholics (or any non-Orthodox, for that matter) commune in Orthodox Churches. Granted, some bishops, especially in the Middle East, occasionally allow Eastern Catholics to commune at their Churches, and some Orthodox laity may take communion in a Catholic church, but this is by no means a universal practice, nor is it approved of by the vast majority of Orthodox bishops. In fact, among the more conservative Orthodox jurisdictions, such as the Greek Old Calendarists and the Russian Church Abroad, Orthodox clergy are not even permitted to enter a Catholic church, and laity are strongly discouraged from doing so.
That’s why I made the distinction between the two. Jews could also believe that the moon is made of green cheese. But that doesn’t make that belief a valid Jewish one.
Zev Steinhardt
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and utterly wrong.
Roman Catholicism is merely a schism from the oldest form of Christianity, that oldest form being the Orthodox Church.
Wrong. Utterly and totally wrong. Up to the Schism, the “main form of Christianity” was the Orthodox Church. Then Rome decided to abandon the Church and go her own way.
The Orthodox have never “split off” from anyone. It is the Romanists who abandoned the Church.
Right, but a belief that Jesus were an earthly messiah, just like the belief that the moon is made of green cheese, wouldn’t be idolatry or a “conversion”, I don’t think. Someone who believed either of those things still could be counted in a minyan, for example.
OK, OK, I yield the point. I’m still learning from you folks, and I’m not letter perfect yet. Besides, much of what I’ve read has been written from the Roman Catholic point of view. My question still stands, however. If Catholics are not Christians, what were the followers of Christ for the first 1000 or 1500 years?
A beseiged
CJ
From my stock knowledge, and correct me if I am wrong, or inaccurate:
To be a Jew you have got to carry Jewish blood. What’s that? meaning you must be able to trace your genealogy all the way back to Abraham (or is it Moses, I think Abraham because he and God made a bargain called the Covenant, signed on the part of Abraham by preputial circumcision in every male issue).
That’s the blood part; now there is the credal part, you have to believe that God is one and His chosen people are the Jews. They have to go together: the blood part and the credal part.
What about Jews who don’t believe in God? They are non-credal Jews who might be atheists, agnostics, secularists, but not integral Jews because they miss the credal component.
The big problem I always see is what about people who don’t have original Jewish blood but converted to the credal part of Jews, meaning they accept the religious teachings and practices of Jews? I think they are Jews by accommodation from integral Jews (understanding integral here as meaning possessed of both blood and creed).
And knowing group psychology as I claim to be, even as a common sense one or one that sits in an armchair, these latter are second class Jews, I am almost sure: they are not entitled to all the preferentials of integral Jews.*
Conclusion: Judaism, that of the integral Jews, is a very exclusive religion, for all practical purposes the blood thing is more important than anything else; and where blood is the criterion for selection, then exclusivism is very essential and thereby emphasized – since they maintain that they are the only chosen people of God, you got to have chosen blood to be chosen people.**
And I think that is why non-Jews also called Gentiles generally harbor antipathy towards them. However, this antipathy is specially pronounced in Christians, owing also to the fact that the crucifixion of Jesus was instigated by Jewish leaders during the times of Jesus. Non-Christians pick up this antipathy from contacts with Christians. There are other reasons for this antipathy, namely, Jews being a minority which usually excel in non-muscle endeavors like making money and other fields of mental feats. And yes, they prefer to make money straight from money, like lending money.
I like to hear from Jews whether they are big givers to charity, education, and the arts in favor of other peoples, in proportion to the wealth of the world they command.
Susma Rio Sep
PS: Please give me all the corrections necessary, for I am sure that my knowledge of Jews is not exactly what Jews themselves think of themselves.
*Incidentally, Jews are still adherents to castes: priests, levites, etc. So non blood-Jews, i.e., people who converted to Judaism, do not seem to fall into any caste; if any preferential is founded upon caste, then they are naturally excluded therefrom.
**I think it is the only people in today’s socio-political world that claims right to territory on the basis of promise from God dating back to Moses and Abraham.
Posted by Mangetout:
Perfectly true – but it’s not just a problem, it’s an American tradition. From colonial times to the turn of the 20th century, and maybe longer, the average American Protestant used the words “Christian” and “Papist” as antonyms. I suppose the same would hold true for Ulster Protestants today – does anybody know more about that?
Well, o’l Jack “D&D will turn you into a devil worshipper” Chick sure seems to think Catholics aren’t Christians:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5023/5023_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0054/0054_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0047/0047_01.asp
(Oh, I missed two of them – Jack Chick’s two latest tracts, both of which are “Left Behind” clones, also have it in for Catholics:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5024/5024_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5025/5025_01.asp
There. One always strives for completeness in these matters.)
Susma Rio Sep, as far as I can tell there is very little in your post that reflects the reality of being Jewish. You can be Jewish via one of two ways, by being born of a Jewish mother or converting. Either one of those conveys full “Jewishness”, there is no other component. You do not have to trace your ancestory back to Moses or Abraham, just your mom. Or convert.
Jews consider anyone who meets one of those two criteria to be Jewish, whether they practice the faith or not. They are still held to the rules and obligations of a Jew. Where did you get this “blood and creed” concept?
Since your assumptions are wrong, your conclusions are pretty much in doubt. Except for the Cohen, I don’t know of anything activity excluded to a Jew, and there aren’t many things anyways, although frankly I’m a bit fuzzy on this. There are no “Second-class Jews”, all are accepted as the same thing.
I’m sure some scholars and more observant Jews will be along to correct my mistakes, but even I can spot some huge holes in your argument.
Not in Western Europe, it wasn’t. In Eastern Europe yes, the main form was Orthodox. But in the West, it was decidedly Roman Catholic.
They both kind of developed at the same time, and then went their separate ways.