# Not all brown people are illegal immigrants **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479 "2011-08-04T17:22:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/81 "2011-08-06T00:44:06Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The etymology of the word beginning with Hispania and working its way down to mean any Spanish-speaking country or Spanish-influenced thing. Then taking that to the meaning specifically when meant as a noun to reference a person in the USA, a “hispanic” or a “latino” - and what countries of origin those terms indicate. Hispanic indicates someone from any Spanish-speaking country of the Americas. And what is your source for the “technical” definition of “hispanic” (which, according to you, is “someone from any Spanish-speaking country of the Americas”)? Is it just your own general knowledge and reasoning based on the etymology of the word? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/82 "2011-08-06T00:57:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And what is your source for the “technical” definition of “hispanic” (which, according to you, is “someone from any Spanish-speaking country of the Americas”)? > > Is it just your own general knowledge and reasoning based on the etymology of the word? Let me back up a moment. There is, in the English language, one definition of the word “hispanic” in terms of its actual, technical meaning as an _adjective_ - influenced by, of, or related to Spain. In this definition the language, architecture, culture, food, etc. in Spain are hispanic. When we apply that adjective to a person, “John is hispanic” we make a big change in the meaning of the word. It means John is not from Spain or he would be Spanish rather than hispanic. It means John is from somewhere who’s language, culture, etc. were influenced by Spain. When we take it one step further and change the word to a noun - “John is a hispanic” we mean John is from a country that can be defined as hispanic, meaning a place where the language and culture, etc. were influenced by Spain. If you search the internet for the word “hispanic” and then read the dictionary definitions, etc. that are from sources interested in the meaning of words more so than government-interpreted definitions for reasons of census data, the meaning of the word supports itself without needing one specific source that lays it all out in a context perfectly suited for this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Plumbkrazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Plumbkrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumbkrazy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/83 "2011-08-06T01:16:38Z")
I’m curious about this as well. I work with a gentleman who was born in Mexico. I know him well, and one day I asked what the difference was between the terms “Hispanic” and “Latino”. He shrugged and said, “They’re the same thing as far as I’m concerned”. That was just one guy’s opnion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/84 "2011-08-06T01:21:45Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > There is, in the English language, one definition of the word “hispanic” in terms of its actual, technical meaning as an _adjective_ - influenced by, of, or related to Spain. And what is your source for this “technical” definition? Is there a particular source you are using or is it just based on your own general knowledge and reasoning about the etymology? Anyway, I posted the definitions from [merriam-webster.com](http://merriam-webster.com) a few posts back. The first definition was as follows: “of or relating to the people, speech, or culture of Spain or of Spain and Portugal” So I have the same question for you as I had for Mighty\_girl: Why should I believe an anonymous person on the internet who insists that the dictionary is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/85 "2011-08-06T01:33:04Z")
P.S. Here are the definitions from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > His·pan·ic    > [hi-span-ik] > –adjective > > 1. Spanish. > 2. Latin American: the United States and its Hispanic neighbors. Note that both of the definitions are for “hispanic” as an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/86 "2011-08-06T01:35:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > P.S. Here are the definitions from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > > Note that both of the definitions are for “hispanic” as an adjective. Irrelevant: it’s trivial to use an adjective as a noun in English. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/87 "2011-08-06T01:40:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And what is your source for this “technical” definition? Is there a particular source you are using or is it just based on your own general knowledge and reasoning about the etymology? > > Anyway, I posted the definitions from [merriam-webster.com](http://merriam-webster.com) a few posts back. > > The first definition was as follows: > > “of or relating to the people, speech, or culture of Spain or of Spain and Portugal” > > So I have the same question for you as I had for Mighty\_girl: > > Why should I believe an anonymous person on the internet who insists that the dictionary is wrong? I will concede Portugal is a hard to pin down case. The very origin of the word Hispanic, as discussed from ancient Hispania - the entire Iberian peninsula (including Portugal) - are all part of the original source of “Hispanic”. So to say a country in South America for example is “Hispanic” is technically also in a sense saying it is influenced by Spain/Portugal, and the whole Iberian peninsula. But over time Portugal didn’t conquer/colonize very many other countries and Spain did. [ul] [li]related to a Spanish-speaking people or culture; “the Hispanic population of California is growing rapidly”[/li][li]Spanish American: an American whose first language is Spanish[/li][/ul] [wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dhispanic&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDAQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNEvmMKBD-_DszeE07OFEMw8OHpvXA) [ul] [li]Hispanic (hispano, hispánico) is a term that originally denoted a relationship to the ancient Hispania, a country that geographically coincided with the Iberian Peninsula. …[/li][/ul] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDIQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNGNaHuJxfepPj3AjBb0xanRJLFT5w) [ul] [li]Race and ethnicity in the United States Census, as defined by the United States Census Bureau and the Federal Office of Management and Budget (OMB), are self-identification data items in which residents choose the race or races with which they most closely identify, and indicate whether or not …[/li][/ul] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic\_(U.S.\_Census)](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_%28U.S._Census%29&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDYQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNFC0op8UGKPa8BebK_EfvjcT1Oefg) [ul] li Hispanism (also referred to at times as Hispanic studies) is the study of the literature and culture of the Spanish-speaking world, principally that of Spain and Latin America.[/li][/ul] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanicism](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanicism&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDgQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNHPWrnHGXndjyoU3Fhd8htJra1aaw) [ul] li A Spanish language item as it appears in another language[/li][/ul] [en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hispanicism](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Hispanicism&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDoQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNHftKeuc9LtqEXRlLStP_HaS921ew) [ul] [li]A person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race.[/li][/ul] [www.uta.fi/FAST/US5/REF/dataset.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US5/REF/dataset.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CDwQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNEeHPjtfqjqNr8_Qgl5c_mcIHnhCg) [ul] [li]Direct ancestry from Hispanic, or Spanish-speaking countries.[/li][/ul] [multiculturalcenter.osu.edu/about-us/identity-terms-definitions/](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://multiculturalcenter.osu.edu/about-us/identity-terms-definitions/&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CD4QngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNEbU8-RmUVONPaFAkKCWWzT62oITg) [ul] [li]A U.S. citizen of true-born Hispanic heritage, from any of the Spanish-speaking areas of Latin America or the following regions: Mexico, Central America, South America and the Caribbean Basin only.[/li][/ul] [www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/supplierdiversity/requirementsDefi…](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/supplierdiversity/requirementsDefinitions.jhtml%3Fpq-path%3D2300595/3648/7809&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEAQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNFrsxAlphwb67FBL0_PT8DoVkhh6A) [ul] [li]for a history of the term, read the article Hispanic vs. Latino[/li][/ul] [www.globalexchange.org/about/aocdefinitions.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.globalexchange.org/about/aocdefinitions.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEIQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNHmWbuUWUa-CsySrPE2Cf3Ruw2TTg) [ul] [li]Someone of Spanish descent living in the United States. A term used by the government and often by people of Latin American descent who vote republican. This term is problematic in that it focuses on a colonizer (Spain) and ignores African, Asian, American Indian, and other European ethnicities. …[/li][/ul] [elenamary.com/terminology/](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://elenamary.com/terminology/&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEQQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNHghP4iOzC0D04_Ne_w7JpTyqscig) [ul] [li]Over 2,200 years ago, when the Romans conquered the Iberian Peninsula, they renamed the place Hispania, which is better known now as España, or Spain . …[/li][/ul] [americanhistory.si.edu/collections/mexicanamerica/glossary.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/mexicanamerica/glossary.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEYQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNEv9JVXDzGIRRtHJiYz9HYwYvc4gQ) [ul] [li]An ethnic designation pertaining to people with cultural origins from Spain.[/li][/ul] [cumuseum.colorado.edu/Exhibits/ThreeCultures/glossary.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://cumuseum.colorado.edu/Exhibits/ThreeCultures/glossary.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEgQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNGGZT0c75PbCvKNL5hVP00BN6NIJw) [ul] [li]Coming from or having to do with one of the countries where Spanish is spoken.[/li][/ul] [barrickmuseum.unlv.edu/families/maya/ancient-vocabulary.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://barrickmuseum.unlv.edu/families/maya/ancient-vocabulary.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEoQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNGmrvn_BvRpYLR-3jrVkIGgThFLkg) [ul] [li]A term grouping all people of Spanish-speaking descent. This is the preferred inclusive term in some regions, especially in the Southwest. See Chicano/Chicana, Latino/Latina, Mexican American, Tejano/Tejana.[/li][/ul] [www.prismnet.com/~tam/multicultural/words.html](http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.prismnet.com/%7Etam/multicultural/words.html&rct=j&sa=X&ei=h5g8Tqu6HdONsAKso8AK&ved=0CEwQngkwBA&q=Hispanic&usg=AFQjCNE-ExZn0SCDyj0UQgemoBD4NviNDw) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/88 "2011-08-06T01:53:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I will concede Portugal is a hard to pin down case. The very origin of the word Hispanic, as discussed from ancient Hispania - the entire Iberian peninsula (including Portugal) - are all part of the original source of “Hispanic”. So to say a country in South America for example is “Hispanic” is technically also in a sense saying it is influenced by Spain/Portugal, and the whole Iberian peninsula. But over time Portugal didn’t conquer/colonize very many other countries and Spain did. Sure, and by some commonly used definitions of the word “hispanic,” Brazillians are included. And of course there is no “technical” definition of “hispanic.” Because generally speaking, that’s not how English works. Generally speaking, words can have technical definitions in certain specific contexts, but not in general. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/89 "2011-08-06T01:54:29Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Irrelevant: it’s trivial to use an adjective as a noun in English. I’m not sure I see your point. **Crazyhorse** was talking about the definition of “hispanic” as an adjective. I supplied a few dictionary definitions for “hispanic” as an adjective. How is that irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/90 "2011-08-06T02:08:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and by some commonly used definitions of the word “hispanic,” Brazillians are included. > > And of course there is no “technical” definition of “hispanic.” Because generally speaking, that’s not how English works. Generally speaking, words can have technical definitions in certain specific contexts, but not in general. I will concede on the technicality of the etymology of the word Brazil could be considered hispanic in much the same way “latino” countries could be considered Roman. I am not Brazilian, Spanish or Portuguese so I will leave that debate among people who are but in terms of actual usage and the understood meaning of the term hispanic, “spanish speaking” is the rule and if it is one, Brazil would be the exception. Here is a pretty persuasive piece from a Brazilian living in the USA about why they believe Brazil is not Hispanic and the US Census data is grossly incorrect, for what it’s worth. **[Once again: Brazilians Are Not Hispanic](http://www.brazzil.com/2003/html/articles/oct03/p112oct03.htm)** > [@](#): > > A number of the diverse populations who migrated to Brazil include: Portugal, Italy, Poland, France, Germany, Lebanon, Syria, Japan, Russia, Austria, Turkey all of which are disengaged on several levels; medically, culturally, and ethnically from the “Hispanic-Latino” paradigms. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/91 "2011-08-06T02:24:39Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure I see your point. **Crazyhorse** was talking about the definition of “hispanic” as an adjective. I supplied a few dictionary definitions for “hispanic” as an adjective. How is that irrelevant? It’s irrelevant to say “as an adjective”: the meaning of “Hispanic” as a noun follows automatically in English. So, if “Hispanic” as an adjective means “from Spanish-speaking America”, “Hispanic” as a noun means “a person from Spanish-speaking America”. However, I’m not getting into the argument about whether it includes from Brazil or from Spain: that’s a different question from use as an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/92 "2011-08-06T08:47:07Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I will concede on the technicality of the etymology of the word Brazil could be considered hispanic in much the same way “latino” countries could be considered Roman. I am not Brazilian, Spanish or Portuguese so I will leave that debate among people who are but in terms of actual usage and the understood meaning of the term hispanic, “spanish speaking” is the rule and if it is one, Brazil would be the exception. > > Here is a pretty persuasive piece from a Brazilian living in the USA about why they believe Brazil is not Hispanic and the US Census data is grossly incorrect, for what it’s worth. It’s not worth that much to me. I mean, it’s one thing to advocate that the Census Bureau should use a different definition. It’s something else to insist that the Census Bureau definition is flat out “wrong.” > [@](#): > > It’s irrelevant to say “as an adjective”: the meaning of “Hispanic” as a noun follows automatically in English. Well tell that to **crazyhorse**. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/93 "2011-08-06T12:09:25Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I could see it being potentially harmful if it is used as a way to stereotype . . . That is **exactly** how “illegals” is used, **always.** ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/94 "2011-08-06T13:20:45Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > They come here because they can make 10x as much here for the same work as they can in their home country, even if it means getting paid below minimum wage. It’s really that simple. You speak as though people are motivated by greed rather than poverty. I’ve seen firsthand the impact of the collapsing agricultural sector on Mexico’s economy. I spent two months in a farming village literally decimated because there is no work. I saw homes literally built out of sticks with dirt floors that housed fifteen people. The point is nobody _wants_ to leave. They leave because they feel they have no choice. That should be obvious to anyone who grasps the incredible hardship of being an undocumented person in this country. Nobody would suffer those consequences unless the alternative were much more dire. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/95 "2011-08-06T13:35:36Z")
brazil84: By the time America was discovered Spain and Portugal had long been “disconnected” and were in fact rivals of sorts. By the time the modern concept of “Hispanic” came into existence in the US nobody cared about Portugal and Spain once sharing the same king. FTR, people from “Hispanic” countries call themselves Latinoamericanos or Hispano-parlantes, the latest being the closest translation to “Hispanic”. For example “Celebrar nuestra Hispanidad” something I have heard on occasions, means “celebrating our Spanish heritage”. Brazilians obviously do not partake of the celebrations. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/96 "2011-08-06T13:55:53Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > brazil84: By the time America was discovered Spain and Portugal had long been “disconnected” and were in fact rivals of sorts. By the time the modern concept of “Hispanic” came into existence in the US nobody cared about Portugal and Spain once sharing the same king. So what? I’m not arguing that a particular definition of “hispanic” is required by the word’s etymology. I’m simply saying that there isn’t One True Definition of the word; and that under some definitions, Brazillians are included. Again my question: Why should I believe an anonymous person on the internet who insists that the dictionary is wrong? > [@](#): > > FTR, people from “Hispanic” countries call themselves Latinoamericanos or Hispano-parlantes, the latest being the closest translation to “Hispanic”. For example “Celebrar nuestra Hispanidad” something I have heard on occasions, means “celebrating our Spanish heritage”. Brazilians obviously do not partake of the celebrations. And again, so what? We’re talking about what “hispanic” means in English. You seem to insist that you know the One True Definition of the word. Why should I accept your claim and reject what the dictionary says? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/97 "2011-08-06T14:02:06Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > You speak as though people are motivated by greed rather than poverty. If the desire to better oneself financially qualifies as “greed,” then surely most illegal aliens in the US are motivated by greed, just as are most people who are here legally. > [@](#): > > I spent two months in a farming village literally decimated because there is no work. So you are giving up on the starvation claim now? > [@](#): > > The point is nobody _wants_ to leave. They leave because they feel they have no choice. And I dont _want_ to go to work every morning. > [@](#): > > That should be obvious to anyone who grasps the incredible hardship of being an undocumented person in this country. My work brings me into contact with a lot of illegal aliens; I wouldn’t call it “incredible hardship.” But let me ask you this: Do you agree that there are still a lot of poor people in Mexico? And if so, why haven’t all of those people sneaked into the United States? By the way, I take it you don’t have any evidence for your claims about the effect of crackdowns on illegal aliens? Besides your own wishful thinking, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/98 "2011-08-06T14:09:08Z")
**Brazil84** , I do not have my citations on hand, so I will retract the second part of my statement. As for this part > [@](#): > > Every punitive measure just makes the abuse and exploitation that much worse for undocumented people I see it everyday. Undocumented immigrants already live in a culture of fear, constant terror of being found out. They don’t report crimes, they don’t report occupational health and safety violations, they do everything within their power to avoid contact with the system. This is how they are so abused and exploited so easily. If the consequences of being undocumented were to increase even more, how much more easily these folks could be abused and exploited. > [@](#): > > And do you agree that hundreds of thousands of Mexicans fled the country during Operation Wetback back in the 50s? Okay, so maybe treating people like shit does deter them from hanging around. I see your point. > [@](#): > > Seriously? You think no human beings should ever be marginalized? > > Can I take it you oppose all boycotts of all groups anywhere? There’s a difference between exacerbating the abuse and exploitation of a minority group and boycotting a business and you damn well know it. Focusing on immigrants as the cause of the problem instead of unwitting pawns in a much larger, much more dysfunctional system completely distracts from the reality of the situation. I do not propose that nothing be done - on the contrary, I think a lot needs to be done. But punishing the immigrants themselves is not the solution. The illegal immigration problem is a massive machine built out of the policies of both the United States and Mexico; it is an underground economy, it is corporations built on the backs of impoverished immigrants, it is inextricably a part of the way we do business in the states and until that is addressed, there is no hope for a solution. There is no way we can solve this until we stop using the immigrants as a scapegoat and start talking about how we ended up here in the first place.\* \*just my opinion, man ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/99 "2011-08-06T15:02:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My work brings me into contact with a lot of illegal aliens; I wouldn’t call it “incredible hardship.” Do my anecdotes trump yours? I’ve worked in the field and studied this topic for the last decade. My work doesn’t ‘‘bring me into contact’’ with immigrants - my work\* is \*immigrants. Among the many places I worked was the 2nd poorest congressional district in the country, an urban area that is 65% Latino. Statistically, immigrants have much higher rates of chronic illness than the general population, are more likely to be killed by said chronic diseases, are much poorer than the general population, are less likely to have access to primary care, are significantly more likely to be injured or killed at work, and experience higher rates of domestic violence. Depression, anxiety and PTSD are incredibly common, particularly among women. In fact, I’d be hard-pressed to think of any social problems that don’t have a larger impact on immigrants than the general population. Anecdotally, I have known people who were sexually assaulted by employers, who were scammed out of their money, who were overworked, withheld pay, fired for trying to unionize, and lived with crippling injuries due to workplace negligence. I have known multiple victims of crime and human rights violations that went unreported. I’ve also watched those same people learn to speak out against the injustice they face and organize to advocate for their rights. I’m pretty sure they would agree with me that their lives are pretty hard. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479/100 "2011-08-06T15:22:27Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > And while we’re at it, a lot of people of Hispanic origin find Hispanic to be an offensive term. I’m not sure why, but Latino is generally the safer bet. That depends on the person. > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I had a college Poli Sci class in college where whatever book we were reading touched on this. Apparently, some say Hispanic is offensive as a generalization because it refers to the people of what Columbus called Hispanola. The part I underlined is… so completely stupid it hurts. People who believe that must have been deskmates with those who think Spain is next to Colombia, in History and Geography. Hispanic can be taken either as a word by itself (in which case, and depending on who you ask, it refers to “anybody whose first language is Spanish or Portuguese”, to “anybody whose first language is Spanish” or to “anybody whose ancestry is mostly from countries where the main language is Spanish (or Portuguese”) OR as a shortening of Hispanic-American. Latino is a shortening of Latinoamericano. As for Española (or its alternate spelling Hispaniola), well, it means “female person or item from Spain or belonging to Spain” - Columbus wasn’t very imaginative when it came to names. In English I’m a Spaniard, in Spanish I’m española. It isn’t just taking longer than we took, sometimes it feels as if the stupid is taking over ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-all-brown-people-are-illegal-immigrants/591479.md?page=6)