# Not being a vexillologist \[on flag design\] **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934 "2020-10-14T13:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/21 "2020-10-15T09:36:16Z")
New Zealand had similar problems to South Africa when they tried to decide on a new flag by public vote. Nobody liked any of the new designs very much, and there was no consensus. > **[New Zealand flag debate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_debate)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The New Zealand flag debate is a periodic question over whether the national flag should be changed. For several decades, alternative designs have been proposed, with varying degrees of support. There is no consensus among proponents of changing the flag as to which design should replace the current one. Common criticisms of the existing form of the New Zealand flag are its similarity to the Australian flag and the inappropriateness of retaining... ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/22 "2020-10-15T09:42:29Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It’s interesting that formal decisions about symbols seem to be much more difficult than others - hence the flag issues (and the question of the monarchy in Australia). No new suggestion seems to please enough people. Well, Canada dumping the Union flag in the canton, in favour of their own design, didn’t upset Britain, and its independent constitutional monarchies, that are equal partners in the Commonwealth. Why would a flag change in Australia–something that is totally under Australia’s control, since it is totally independent from Britain and a constitutional monarchy, upset Australians? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/23 "2020-10-15T09:59:06Z")
The association’s rules and the Roman Mars stuff are good guides. My own interpretation is this. (1) No more than 5 colors, preferably no more then 3 (2) No language, letters, words, etc. All communication should be non-verbal (3) Simole, iconic design in which all elements aren’t easily sotinguishable at a distance. Think about looking at a postage stamp at arms length and being able to distinguish everything. That means that representations of real things must be highly simplified and stylized. If you need a concrete example, look at the flag of the State of New Mexico. That’s about as perfect as you can get. It’s beautiful, simple, iconic, meaningful, easily viewed and identified. Compare all designs to that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/24 "2020-10-15T10:03:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another exception to the “no text” rule is Ohio: The circle in the design is the letter “O”. But it’s just one letter, and a generically-shaped letter at that, and that’s hardly what makes the flag distinctive. > > As for distinctiveness, see Australia and New Zealand. Sure, that might be a good flag for one of those countries, if you don’t mind having another country’s flag as an element of your own. But it can’t be a good flag for both countries. Also, it can be seen as a non-verbal element. After all, it’s just a circle. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/25 "2020-10-15T10:13:08Z")
> Why would a flag change in Australia–something that is totally under Australia’s control, since it is totally independent from Britain and a constitutional monarchy, upset Australians? Because it did, when they had a referendum on the monarchy: there wasn’t a consensus on any one alternative. I meant that there are examples, like New Zealand, Australia and South Africa, of countries not finding public consensus about such symbols _within themselves_. Of course it’s nothing to do with any other country, I never said it was; if the UK tried anything similar I don’t doubt we’d have the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/26 "2020-10-15T11:17:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another exception to the “no text” rule is Ohio: The circle in the design is the letter “O”. But it’s just one letter, and a generically-shaped letter at that, and that’s hardly what makes the flag distinctive. Colorado also as a single letter, C of course. > **[Flag of Colorado](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Colorado)** > > The flag of Colorado was officially adopted to represent the U.S. state of Colorado on June 5, 1911. The flag, designed by Andrew Carlisle Carson,\[a\] consists of a fess design of three horizontal stripes of equal width, with the top and bottom stripes colored blue, and the middle stripe colored white. A circular red "C", filled with a golden disk, sits atop the stripes. All aspects of the flag contain symbolism related to the state, as the blue is meant to represent the sky, the gold the abu... There’s a largish roundabout in Colorado that has that letter (in those colors) in its center island. I’ve posted before how Oregon’s is the worst of the state’s flags. It violates every rule you can think of, including some not mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/27 "2020-10-15T11:31:22Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I’ve posted before how Oregon’s is the worst of the state’s flags. It violates every rule you can think of, including some not mentioned in this thread. Wow, **[it sure is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Oregon)**! It looks like it was designed by a backward child with no imagination. As indeed it sort of was – according to Wikipedia, it was designed by the Oregon legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/28 "2020-10-15T12:02:06Z")
Gaddafi’s Libyan flag had an original pattern (1977-2011): [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Flag\_of\_Libya\_(1977–2011).svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Flag_of_Libya_%281977%E2%80%932011%29.svg) ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/29 "2020-10-15T12:05:19Z")
> It looks like it was designed by a backward child with no imagination. But fair dos, they did manage to colour inside the lines. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/30 "2020-10-15T13:45:02Z")
My favorite flag (it hangs on a wall at home) is the flag of Dominica. Is it good or bad design? > **[Flag of Dominica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Dominica#/media/File:Flag_of_Dominica.svg)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The flag of Dominica was adopted on 3 November 1978, with some small changes having been made in 1981, 1988, and 1990. The original flag was designed by playwright Alwin Bully in early 1978 as the country prepared for independence. > It is one of only three national flags (the other two being El Salvador and Nicaragua) that currently use purple. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/31 "2020-10-15T14:00:57Z")
Since good design is a matter of opinion, let’s move this to IMHO. Title edited to indicate subject more clearly. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/32 "2020-10-15T14:19:54Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There was just the normal grumbling about government incompetence, and a couple of unprintable jokes about what the flag looked like Huh? _[Turns head sideways]_ … oh. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/33 "2020-10-15T14:20:53Z")
I’ve always been fascinated by the flag of Nepal, the only major national flag that isn’t a quadrilateral > **[Flag of Nepal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Nepal)** > > The national flag of Nepal (Nepali: नेपालको झण्डा) is the world's only irregular flag acting as both the state flag and civil flag of a sovereign country. The flag is a simplified combination of two single pennons (or pennants), known as a double-pennon. Its crimson red is the symbol of bravery and it also represents the color of the rhododendron, Nepal's national flower, while the blue border is the color of peace. Until 1962, the flag's emblems, both the sun and the crescent moon, had human Here’s my favorite part: > [@](#): > > When constructed according to the stated geometric construction law, the ratio of the height of the flag to the longest width is an irrational number: You have to go to the Wikipedia site for the equations – it won’t let me copy them here. See here, too > **[Decoding the Unusual Shape of the Nepali Flag](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/nepal-flag-shape)** > > Where did all those angles come from? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/34 "2020-10-15T15:03:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Wow, **[it sure is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Oregon)**! It looks like it was designed by a backward child with no imagination. As indeed it sort of was – according to Wikipedia, it was designed by the Oregon legislature. Actually, the reverse (it’s a two-sided flag, the only remaining state flag like that) is fine, although the beaver could be simplified. Just fly it back to front. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/35 "2020-10-15T15:53:37Z")
I’ve studied vexillology, but found it too vexing. But at the top of my _“Bucket List (of things I’ll never accomplish, so I won’t die)”_ is: 1. Redesign American flag (Upper left corner too busy, horizontal stripes not at all slimming, and the whole thing’s asymmetrical and off balance). 2. And our currency… ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/36 "2020-10-15T16:06:02Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The New Mexico flag might have been judged a winner in terms of design, but it’s not well-loved by the Zia Pueblo of New Mexico. > > To begin with, it uses as its center a 12-rayed sun design taken from a very private Zia sun symbol. Nitpick: 16 rays. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_Mexico) > Four is a sacred number which symbolizes the Circle of Life: the four directions, the four times of day, the four stages of life, and the four seasons. The circle binds the four elements of four together. mbh, lifelong Noo Messkin. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/37 "2020-10-15T17:06:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, the reverse (it’s a two-sided flag, the only remaining state flag like that) is fine, That’s one of the rules the Oregon flag breaks not mentioned in this thread. Double sided. Very bad idea. There’s a couple ways to make it, but either one makes the flag heavier, so it doesn’t fly in the breeze very well. Were there other state flags that also violated this rule? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/38 "2020-10-15T17:26:23Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Were there other state flags that also violated this rule? Here’s a [list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_whose_reverse_differs_from_the_obverse) of double-sided national and state flags. Most of them do it because they have text or maps that wouldn’t read correctly if flipped. The most recent state flag to eliminate the reverse is Massachusetts in 1971. Like Oregon, the reverse was better. Same with West Virginia, while Minnesota was equally bad either way. I used to live in Colorado. I thought [the flag was pretty good](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Colorado) except for using the letter “C,” which was backwards on the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/39 "2020-10-15T21:08:04Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > “No lettering or seals of any kind” is generally a quite good rule of flag design I get this with Latin alphabet flags, mostly, but [as I’ve pointed out before](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-your-city-have-a-flag-what-does-it-look-like/837318/50), the flags of Japanese prefectures and municipalities often use calligraphy, and they are fucking awesome designs. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > This page is interesting. It has flags that look impressive, but violate the laws of **Good Flag, Bad Flag** Yay, South Africa! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934/40 "2020-10-16T00:23:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > “No lettering or seals of any kind” is generally a quite good rule of flag design > > I get this with Latin alphabet flags, mostly, but [as I’ve pointed out before](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-your-city-have-a-flag-what-does-it-look-like/837318/50), the flags of Japanese prefectures and municipalities often use calligraphy, and they are fucking awesome designs. The good ones are the ones where the writing is so stylized, it presents more as an icon than as writing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-being-a-vexillologist-on-flag-design/922934.md?page=3)