# Not blocking the intersection - a question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597 "2015-12-28T22:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/21 "2015-12-29T18:20:39Z")
What you consider dubious is in fact the law in Québec, as cited above. Compare it to how the problem of clogged intersections are dealt with by the law in Québec’s neighbouring province of [Ontario](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK233), where the law is in line with what you want the Québec law to be: > [@](#): > > Blocking intersection > 145. (1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1). > > Idem > (2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (2). > > Idem > (3) A by-law passed under subsection (1) shall apply to all signalized intersections of highways under the jurisdiction of the municipality. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (3). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/22 "2015-12-29T18:27:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The trick is to not enter an intersection when the odds are you will bog things down. There is a big difference between being the first car waiting to turn left in an intersection, and being the second or third car waiting to turn left in an intersection in an intersection. Usually there is enough time for one left turning car to clear the intersection before the red turns to green. Usually there is not enough time for several left turning cars to clear the intersection before the red turns to green. Want to drive safely? Don’t pull out into an intersection when the odds are you will not be able to clear the intersection before the red turns to green. [The law reflects this.](http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/telecharge.php?type=2&file=/C_24_2/C24_2_A.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > . . . . > > Except in case of necessity, no person may stop a road vehicle in such a manner that it will block a sign or signal, obstruct traffic, hinder the performance of work or the maintenance of highways or prevent access to any property. Highway Safety Code, CQLR c C-24.2, s. 382. “Necessity” is the important qualifier here. If I want to turn left at an uncontrolled intersection from a busy two-lane street (or into that there driveway), I have to stop and wait for oncoming traffic to leave me a gap: that is stopping a vehicle in a way that obstructs traffic (cars behind me). Perhaps the clause is clearer in the original Acadian. ---
**Author:** ![wellanuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@wellanuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wellanuff)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/23 "2015-12-29T18:45:00Z")
Just to clarify, I am talking about a situation where the street I want to turn left onto is clear and open, but a steady stream of oncoming cars is preventing me from making a left-hand turn. I was taught that it was OK (in Illinois) to move into the intersection while waiting to make the turn. Even if the light turns red while you are waiting (because oncoming traffic was still entering the intersection during the yellow), you are not afoul of the law if you are waiting because it is not yet safe to make the turn. Once it is safe, you go ahead and complete the turn even if your light is red (when you were already in the intersection). Am I mistaken that there aren’t states where the above maneuver is illegal? I thought I had read somewhere that in some states you have to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic before entering the intersection. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/24 "2015-12-29T18:47:29Z")
[It’s a bad time of year for people turning left in P.Q.](http://www.journaldemourreal.com/accident-de-chasse-galerie-en-beauce-lalcool-serait-en-cause/) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/25 "2015-12-29T18:50:09Z")
> [@wellanuff](#): > > Just to clarify, I am talking about a situation where the street I want to turn left onto is clear and open, but a steady stream of oncoming cars is preventing me from making a left-hand turn. > > I was taught that it was OK (in Illinois) to move into the intersection while waiting to make the turn. Even if the light turns red while you are waiting (because oncoming traffic was still entering the intersection during the yellow), you are not afoul of the law if you are waiting because it is not yet safe to make the turn. Once it is safe, you go ahead and complete the turn even if your light is red (when you were already in the intersection). > > Am I mistaken that there aren’t states where the above maneuver is illegal? I thought I had read somewhere that in some states you have to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic before entering the intersection. Thanks, that was precisely my understanding in all jurisdictions I know (excluding “box” junctions that explicitly prohibit it); and precisely my question - I would like to understand if there are really other jurisdictions that don’t work this way. I’m not yet convinced that Quebec is one of them, based on the statutes cited. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/26 "2015-12-29T19:04:26Z")
> [@wellanuff](#): > > Am I mistaken that there aren’t states where the above maneuver is illegal? I thought I had read somewhere that in some states you have to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic before entering the intersection. In Seattle the DOL says it’s illegal and the driving test asks that exact question and DOL says correct answer is the one where you don’t enter the intersection. There is an article in a local newspaper about it and the article shows the two laws covering the situation and says there is some ambiguity, but the police are trained that it’s illegal. Police also said they don’t generally ticket for the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/27 "2015-12-29T19:08:56Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > In Seattle the DOL says it’s illegal and the driving test asks that exact question and DOL says correct answer is the one where you don’t enter the intersection. > > There is an article in a local newspaper about it and the article shows the two laws covering the situation and says there is some ambiguity, but the police are trained that it’s illegal. Police also said they don’t generally ticket for the situation. Do you have links? Not doubting you, just interested - and I may well drive there next year. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/28 "2015-12-29T19:29:53Z")
Also, the general [don’t-block-an-intersection law in P.Q.](http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/telecharge.php?type=2&file=/C_24_2/C24_2_A.html): > [@](#): > > 1. Even if permitted by the traffic lights, no driver of a road vehicle may enter an intersection if there is not sufficient space ahead of the vehicle to proceed without blocking the intersection; in such a case, the driver must stop his vehicle before the near side of the roadway he is about to cross. 1986, c. 91, s. 366. BTW, folks who visit Quebec should also be aware of the no-turning-right-on-red in Montreal (it used to be the entire province), and on the superhighways no-passing-on-the-right, and the leftmost-lane-for-passing-only. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/29 "2015-12-29T19:48:59Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Also, the general [don’t-block-an-intersection law in P.Q.](http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/telecharge.php?type=2&file=/C_24_2/C24_2_A.html): > > 1. Even if permitted by the traffic lights, no driver of a road vehicle may enter an intersection if there is not sufficient space ahead of the vehicle to proceed without blocking the intersection; in such a case, the driver must stop his vehicle before the near side of the roadway he is about to cross. 1986, c. 91, s. 366. Thanks, I accept that this must include left turns, since a search of those statutes shows nothing else explicitly for left turns. (It seems poor legislative practise not to be explicit that this includes left turns, since this differs from the large majority of other jurisdictions.) So it seems Quebec is, indeed, a jurisdiction where you cannot _ever_ pull forward into an intersection to wait to turn left. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/30 "2015-12-29T19:50:26Z")
Wow, [QUOTE=“[Seattle Municipal code Ord. 108200, § 2(11.55.140), 1979] ([https://www.municode.com/library/wa/seattle/municipal\_code/TIT11VETR\_SUBTITLE\_ITRCO\_PT5DRRU\_CH11.55STSTTU\_11.55.040LETU](https://www.municode.com/library/wa/seattle/municipal_code/TIT11VETR_SUBTITLE_ITRCO_PT5DRRU_CH11.55STSTTU_11.55.040LETU))”]No person shall make a left turn between intersections on any street when such left turn delays or stops any vehicle traveling in the same or the opposite direction on the street, or when such left turn endangers or is likely to endanger any person or vehicle on the street, provided that if traffic conditions are such that the delayed or stopped vehicles could have safely passed the left turning vehicle on the right without stopping or being delayed such left turns are permitted. [/QUOTE] a strict reading of that would say that on a two-lane road (one lane either way) in Seattle, you may not make a left turn into, say, a driveway, if there is oncoming traffic and a car behind you will have to stop to let you wait for a chance to turn. I seriously doubt that ever gets enforced to the letter. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/31 "2015-12-29T20:00:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Do you have links? Not doubting you, just interested - and I may well drive there next year. [http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Getting-There-What-is-the-law-on-left-turns-3603191.php](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Getting-There-What-is-the-law-on-left-turns-3603191.php) Note: I just re-read the article and police have multiple opinions, they are not trained one way ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/32 "2015-12-29T21:37:53Z")
One of the arguments I saw on a tangled Reddit thread was that people turning right have the right-of-way over people turning left, so, if the light turns red, any in turning right would block the left-turner. Except, strictly, right turn on red requires a full stop, during which time the left-turner becomes traffic to which the right-turner should yield (a right turn on red is supposed to be on the premise that the path for the turn is clear in both directions). It is kind of one of those conundrum thingies. Around here, when the light turns yellow, as many cars as possible enter the intersection before (and sometimes after) the light turns red, so a left-turner will usually have to wait long enough that cross traffic will have greens. On the other hand, it is not legal to run into another vehicle merely because it is in your way just now. Drivers may not enter an intersection solely on the basis of a green light, the intersection must be clear, and you really do have to slow down, or at least not speed up, if someone is turning left in front of you at a reasonable distance. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/33 "2015-12-30T00:48:32Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > [http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Getting-There-What-is-the-law-on-left-turns-3603191.php](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Getting-There-What-is-the-law-on-left-turns-3603191.php) > > Note: I just re-read the article and police have multiple opinions, they are not trained one way Good grief, of all the controversial things out there, how difficult can it be to just _decide_ and write the law clearly and promulgate a consistent enforcement policy? It’s a pretty significant safety issue, you really don’t want people sitting in a busy junction hesitantly wondering “should I be here?” ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/34 "2015-12-30T19:13:02Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > Assuming that you’re trying to turn left, and there’s plenty of room for you to go on that street to your left, but you can’t go immediately because there’s a constant stream of oncoming traffic and no breaks in between big enough for you to get through… > > I know two ways to get through without blocking the box. Both will make someone mad, possibly result in a collision. You just have to decide if it’s worth it. > > #1 Pull into the intersection and slowly slowly slowly turn left. At first, the cars coming the other way will just go around you. Eventually, one of three things will happen. Either (a) an oncoming car will see the shrinking gap and decide to just let you go (but they may be really angry about it), or (b) someone will hit you and you can both be really angry at each other, or (c) the light will turn yellow, which leads me to #2… > > #2 Be in the intersection when the light turns yellow. At that moment, wait for just ONE oncoming car to pass you and then immediately pull left just behind that car’s rear bumper. If there’s another oncoming car trying to enter the intersection, they will be really mad at you because they wanted to run the yellow light and you just got in their way. But one of three things will happen: (a) they’ll slam on the brakes and let you go, or (b) they’ll hit you, or (c) they’ll let you go and then try to drive around you while the light is red, at which point THEY are the ones who are blocking the box, not you. > > Basically, you have to ask yourself how important it is to you to make that left turn and are you willing to play chicken with the oncoming cars. FWIW, when I lived in NJ, I probably used method #2 about a thousand times, and nobody ever hit me. > > The safe alternative is to give up your idea of turning left, go STRAIGHT through the intersection, and then a right at the next light followed by two more rights. Like the wise man said, “Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three rights make a left.” I heard this told (actually sung!) by a stand-up comic with a college degree in Philosophy as, “Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do.” Not helpful for those waiting for a left turn, though. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/35 "2015-12-30T19:19:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If there is no red arrow, the exit road is clear, there is no “box”, and the only thing blocking your progress to turn left is opposite-direction traffic going straight ahead, can you give a cite for states where it is _not_ correct to enter the intersection and wait? I was not aware of this. > > As a corollary, I think it’s true in all jurisdictions that if you have entered the junction legally under a green light, you have the right of way to complete your maneuver, even after the lights change. Are there any exceptions? In a defensive driving course, in Texas, I was told that, in Texas, when making a left turn with a standard green light (no arrow), that oncoming traffic has the right-of-way, and has a right to enter the intersection. Since the other drivers have the right-of-way, the left-turner does not. When the light turns yellow and then red, if you are in the intersection, you STILL do not have right-of-way. The recommendation was to wait behind the line until you had a clear path to complete the turn. Or wait for a turn arrow. Anything else could earn you a citation, in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/36 "2015-12-30T19:24:23Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > In California, you may not enter the intersection for a left turn until the street you’re turning left onto has room to accommodate you, regardless of what the lights say. However, if the street you’re turning into is clear but you cannot make the turn because of oncoming traffic, you may enter the intersection to wait for oncoming traffic to clear, even if that doesn’t happen until the light turns red. I have been a licensed driver in California for 45 years. Can you tell me what section of the Vehicle Code says this? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/37 "2015-12-30T19:46:13Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I have been a licensed driver in California for 45 years. Can you tell me what section of the Vehicle Code says this? California Vehicle Code [22526](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=22001-23000&file=22500-22526) seems to say that you can’t enter the intersection on a yellow to make a left or right turn if there is insufficient space to clear, but nothing about entering on a green: > [@](#): > > 1. (a) Notwithstanding any official traffic control signal > indication to proceed, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter an > intersection or marked crosswalk unless there is sufficient space on > the other side of the intersection or marked crosswalk to accommodate > the vehicle driven without obstructing the through passage of > vehicles from either side. > (b) A driver of a vehicle which is making a turn at an > intersection who is facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow > signal shall not enter the intersection or marked crosswalk unless > there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection or > marked crosswalk to accommodate the vehicle driven without > obstructing the through passage of vehicles from either side. From what I can tell, (a) applies to vehicles crossing the intersection, while (b) is for turning vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/38 "2015-12-30T20:16:05Z")
California code section [21800](http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=11.&title=&part=&chapter=4.&article=), “Right of Way”, primarily concerns itself with uncontrolled intersection, but the key clause that begins the sections says that a vehicle approaching an intersection must yield to a vehicle that is already in the intersection. This would mean that if your light turns green while there is someone waiting to turn left across your path, you are obligated to let them proceed (this is basically reiterated further down in the section). Again, as above, it does not say anything about being able to move forward on a green to wait. We need roundabouts. Then issues like this would go away, because everybody is turning left in a roundabout. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/39 "2015-12-30T20:43:26Z")
Thanks to both. 🙂 Oh-- in traffic circles as we call them, everyone turns to the right to enter. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597/40 "2015-12-30T22:22:30Z")
I was trained that you could pull into the intersection on a green light to make a left turn. I believe I have heard some people describe this maneuver as “claiming the intersection.” I have also heard that claiming the intersection is legal in all U.S. states but I’ve never checked whether that’s really true. I suspect there is enough ambiguity in at least some state statutes that some police officers will cite you for claiming the intersection if you are still there after the light turns red. It seems like there are several “anti-blocking” statutes that prohibits turns where you don’t have space to clear the intersection. Anti-blocking statutes make it very clear that you can’t enter an intersection if, wherever you are headed, there isn’t space for you to fit your car. These anti-blocking statutes are aimed at preventing you from “blocking the box” when you get stuck in the intersection after the light changes because you have no place to go. Blocking the box causes gridlock because if the intersection gets blocked, no one can move through it. The anti-blocking statutes don’t unambiguously answer the question about claiming the intersection while yielding to oncoming traffic. In fact, most of the anti-blocking statutes cited above would seem to allow it. When you claim the intersection, your problem isn’t that you don’t have a place to go, it’s that you can’t get there safely. Once the light changes and the oncoming traffic stops, you will be safe go and you will have plenty of room to do it. In a sense, claiming the intersection just allows you to be the first person to go when the light changes to green for traffic coming from the other direction. And that makes sense, since you, in fact, had a green light to proceed through the intersection before any of the cars waiting at the cross light. Furthermore, as someone above noted, the light turning green doesn’t give you the right of way if there are other cars in the intersection. That seems to make it very clear that even if you have a green light, you have to yield to a car that already claimed the intersection. It should also be obvious that when the light turns green, you shouldn’t feel free to just ram whoever is in your way. You wait the half second it takes for them to go and then you proceed. I was also trained that only one car at a time could claim the intersection on a green. In other places, the number of cars claiming the intersection seems to be limited only by the number of cars that fit in the intersection. I’m not sure what the right answer is here. I could probably argue it either way depending on the facts and the statute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-blocking-the-intersection-a-question/741597.md?page=3)