# Not bowing to queen/king **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041 "2016-12-18T15:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/1 "2016-12-18T15:49:50Z")
I assume there are people who refuse to bow or curtsy to a queen or king in UK and other places. How common is this? I guess it’s just considered bad taste but nothing else happens. BTW I know that non citizens don’t bow so I don’t mean Americans , etc. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/2 "2016-12-18T16:50:07Z")
> **[Rules for Touching British Royals](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/12/the-rules-for-touching-british-royals/383616/)** > > Was LeBron James wrong to put his arm around Kate Middleton? A brief guide. > **[The Queen tells the Duchess of Cambridge to curtsy to the 'blood princesses’](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/9351571/The-Queen-tells-the-Duchess-of-Cambridge-to-curtsy-to-the-blood-princesses.html)** > > The Queen has updated the Order of Precedence in the Royal family, making it clear that the Duchess of Cambridge must curtsy to the Princesses by birth. > **[Former courtier said that it is not necessary to bow to the Quen](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2771710/Don-t-worry-curtsying-Queen-s-relaxed-says-former-senior-courtier.html)** > > A former senior courtier, Dickie Arbiter, has claimed that bowing and curtsying for the Queen is 'not necessary' as Her Majesty is 'very relaxed' about it all. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/3 "2016-12-18T17:24:09Z")
so normal people don’t have to bow/curtsy, but the future queen does. That’s pretty funny ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/4 "2016-12-18T18:09:38Z")
Family gatherings must be so much fun bowing and curtseying to each other. Pass me the potatoes AFTER you’re done curtseying. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/5 "2016-12-18T18:13:21Z")
What kind of maniac would give a royal some potatoes BEFORE bowing? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/6 "2016-12-18T18:29:26Z")
A polite Irish republican? ---
**Author:** ![Chopsticks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@Chopsticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopsticks)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/7 "2016-12-18T20:04:17Z")
A few (hundred) years ago, UK citizens refusing to bow to the Emperor of China caused some problems. Eventually turned into a war. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First\_Opium\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War) I know US people don’t bow to the Queen because 'Muricans and Revolution, no noble titles, and all that. But is that also the case for people from non-Commonwealth countries? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/8 "2016-12-19T00:46:10Z")
Not 100% sure but I don’t think people from France, Germany, Italy ,etc and other places with no king/queen generally bow to kings/queens . It’s not just an American thing although Americans probably make bigger deal out of not bowing. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/9 "2016-12-19T06:14:10Z")
In a lot of countries bowing is a general sign of respect, at least in formal contexts. Lawyers bow to judges, gentlemen bow to ladies, etc, etc. So it’s not like bowing is some unique gesture of respect that is accorded only to royalty. In those cultures, a visiting head of state likely merits a bow, whether monarch or president. And this would be the case in many European countries. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/10 "2016-12-19T08:05:03Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > It’s not just an American thing although Americans probably make bigger deal out of not bowing. I’m reminded of an American whose comments I’ve seen on another forum, saying (paraphrased), “As an American, I’m freer than than anybody. I don’t have to bow to a monarch.” Well, as a Canadian, whose monarch is the Queen of Canada, I don’t have to bow in the presence of the Queen either. If I was to meet the Queen, and chose not to bow, there is no sanction that the government of Canada nor the Queen could invoke. I might do, to be polite, but nothing requires me to. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/11 "2016-12-19T08:17:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In a lot of countries bowing is a general sign of respect, at least in formal contexts. Lawyers bow to judges… IAAL in Canada, and I will say that upon entering the courtroom, I always give my head a slight nod, to acknowledge the court. Going through the bar, I will do the same; and I will do likewise when exiting the bar and the courtroom. It is a sign of respect for the court. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/12 "2016-12-19T08:37:03Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’m reminded of an American whose comments I’ve seen on another forum, saying (paraphrased), “As an American, I’m freer than than anybody. I don’t have to bow to a monarch.” I don’t buy that either. As an American I’m sure that person will be expected but not required to show some deference or respect in actions or words to their president. As a UK citizen I am under exactly the same obligation regarding the monarchy. If either of us choose not to follow expected protocol then exactly the same sanctions will apply…nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/13 "2016-12-19T09:12:25Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > In a lot of countries bowing is a general sign of respect, at least in formal contexts. Lawyers bow to judges, gentlemen bow to ladies, etc, etc. So it’s not like bowing is some unique gesture of respect that is accorded only to royalty. > > In those cultures, a visiting head of state likely merits a bow, whether monarch or president. And this would be the case in many European countries. And in others a shallow bow has become the abbreviated version of the old bowing from the waist and curtsying. When you see people shaking hands with the kings of Spain during an audience, most Spaniards do little more than a head bob, and that’s in formal situations. It wouldn’t be the first time someone goes for two kisses instead, outside of an audience. The shallow bows do not get returned: the kisses, like the handshakes, do. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/14 "2016-12-19T12:33:57Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I’m reminded of an American whose comments I’ve seen on another forum, saying (paraphrased), “As an American, I’m freer than than anybody. I don’t have to bow to a monarch.” As a non-American, I don’t have to salute your flag or put my hand on my heart during your national anthem. It’s on the same level of formality and symbolic significance. When it’s a question of Her _Majesty_, that refers to the state that she’s there to symbolise, not herself - that’s why you’ll most likely see it at very formal occasions, but not that often otherwise. Nor indeed is bowing abasing yourself - any more than the monarch does in her bow when laying the wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday (surprise, surprise, it’s not all about you, or her). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/15 "2016-12-19T16:04:50Z")
Note also that there is a difference between bowing and kneeling. Bowing is just a sign of respect, while kneeling is a sign of subordination. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/16 "2016-12-19T16:59:15Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > IAAL in Canada, and I will say that upon entering the courtroom, I always give my head a slight nod, to acknowledge the court. Going through the bar, I will do the same; and I will do likewise when exiting the bar and the courtroom. > > It is a sign of respect for the court. This. In Canadian courts, it’s at its most formal in the Supreme Court of Canada. As the judges file in, counsel all stand. The judges take their places at their chairs behind the bench, and counsel give a short bow. Then the judges give a short bow back to counsel, and everyone sits. The bowing is a sign of mutual respect: the Bar for the Bench, and then the Bench for the Bar. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/17 "2016-12-20T01:50:26Z")
Just don’t accidentally headbutt the Queen like Mr. Bean. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/18 "2016-12-20T09:31:00Z")
As I recall (it’s been a long time), when I was presented to the Queen of England, I just looked at what everyone else did ahead of me, and gave a slight nod of the head and shook her hand when she presented it. For the King of Jordan, just handshakes all around, same as any other dignitary. There is a remarkable lack of formality for Arab royalty, who are very accessible to their subjects. When meeting a queen of an African tribe in Benin, I was told beforehand not to touch her person in any way, but I can’t recall any other protocol out of ordinary civil courtesy. In most of east and south Asia, you bow to everybody when greeting them, even if fairly familiar. Is “bow” defined for these purposes? How many millimeters is the measurable vertical movement of the head, to qualify as a legal bow? Does the back need to perceptibly flexed, or is a head-bow by itself sufficient? If the queen is, for some reason, making a visit to North Carolina, does a person have to either bow or curtsey according to the gender stated on their birth certificate? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/19 "2016-12-20T11:57:43Z")
I’m an Englishman who’s been to US baseball games. I stood up for the US anthem as it was polite to do so. Of course Americans (or anyone else) are free not to bow to our Monarch. It’s just rude not to show some respect. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/20 "2016-12-20T14:10:54Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > If the queen is, for some reason, making a visit to North Carolina, does a person have to either bow or curtsey according to the gender stated on their birth certificate? An American citizen owes no fealty to any foreign monarch, and therefore neither bows nor curtseys. She is treated exactly as one would treat any older woman of good character - she is addressed as Your Majesty the first time, and Ma’am subsequently. One does not shake hands with an older woman unless she offers her hand first - this is no different for a Queen. The US recognizes no titles of distinction - any citizen is the social equal of any King or Queen. We don’t have to do anything to stress this point - it is taken for granted. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041.md?page=2)