# Not bowing to queen/king **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041 "2016-12-18T15:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/21 "2016-12-20T14:54:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > An American citizen owes no fealty to any foreign monarch, and therefore neither bows nor curtseys. She is treated exactly as one would treat any older woman of good character - she is addressed as Your Majesty the first time, and Ma’am subsequently. One does not shake hands with an older woman unless she offers her hand first - this is no different for a Queen. > > The US recognizes no titles of distinction - any citizen is the social equal of any King or Queen. We don’t have to do anything to stress this point - it is taken for granted. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t think any country’s citizens owe any fealty to any foreign monarch. My remark about North Carolina was not about fealty to a monarch, but about the criminality there of certain voluntary behaviors not consistent with the gender indicated on their birth certificate. Are you saying an American “should not bow nor curtsey” when meeting the queen? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/22 "2016-12-20T22:31:34Z")
If a person does owe fealty to a monarch, they shouldn’t bow, because they should kneel instead. It’s precisely if they don’t owe fealty that a bow is appropriate and polite. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/23 "2016-12-21T01:34:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > An American citizen owes no fealty to any foreign monarch, and therefore neither bows nor curtseys . . . No citizen of any country owes fealty to any foreign monarch; that’s what the word “foreign” signifies. But it doesn’t follow that you neither bow nor curtsey; it’s polite to show respect to the official representative of a foreign country, when either you are a guest in their country or they are a guest in yours, and both bows and curtseys are common gestures of respect. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/24 "2016-12-21T05:30:24Z")
**UDS** , next he says: > [@Shodan](#): > > She is treated exactly as one would treat any older woman of good character - she is addressed as Your Majesty the first time, and Ma’am subsequently. Most older women I know aren’t adressed as Your Majesty, and how is one to determine an older woman’s character on first acquaintance (or that of anybody else) is beyond me, but what I do think I can determine is that **Shodan** can’t make up his mind whether one should treat foreign monarchs as monarchs or not. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/25 "2016-12-21T11:27:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > An American citizen owes no fealty to any foreign monarch, and therefore neither bows nor curtseys. Or, if they want to, they do, based on whatever reason feels good to them. Just like citizens of free countries with monarchs. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/26 "2016-12-21T12:36:43Z")
Or they walk holding hands with the foreign king, as Dubya famously did with the King of Saudi Arabia. (Not meant as a slam at Dubya; simply a good example of an American, president no less, adapting to local customs of respect.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/27 "2016-12-21T13:08:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Most older women I know aren’t adressed as Your Majesty… They are if that is their formal social title. > [@](#): > > **Shodan** can’t make up his mind whether one should treat foreign monarchs as monarchs or not. Americans treat them as monarchs - but not our monarchs. The Queen of England is treated as the Queen of England, and not the Queen of America or Americans. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/28 "2016-12-21T13:18:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Queen of England is treated as the Queen of England, and not the Queen of America or Americans. Except, in 2016, that seems to mean treating her the same way in both places. Bowing or curtsying is not socially mandatory in her realms, nor is it actually socially forbidden in the USA. [The royal website is pretty lax about it.](https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family) > [@](#): > > There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting The Queen or a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms. > > For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way. It’s no different in the USA, except I guess you could flip which version is our “traditional form.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/29 "2016-12-21T13:28:43Z")
When I met Prince Edward in Canada, it was pretty informal; just a hand-shake and a few bits of small chat. But, he quickly seized on something I said and started chatting about it in an informed way. I got the impression he’s quick-witted in social settings. No surprise, since he’s been doing it all his life. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/30 "2016-12-21T13:31:32Z")
Must bow to the queen? NO, not really, but its a stupid, rude and disrespect full move not to do it when she’s in your presence. It’s on the same level as shouting obscenities during the national anthem or pledge allegiance to the flag, burning the flag or not getting up of your chair during the national anthem in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/31 "2016-12-21T13:39:23Z")
Exactly. If I’m at a rugger match in Canada against an Irish team and the Irish anthem plays, of course I stand. It’s a gesture of respect. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/32 "2016-12-21T13:49:06Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Must bow to the queen? NO, not really, but its a stupid, rude and disrespect full move not to do it when she’s in your presence. Eh, I’d say it’s more like standing respectfully for the US national anthem but without putting your hand over your heart, or siting quietly during a prayer at a church service rather than kneeling. Some gestures touch on concepts that are very personal in nature, and I think this is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/33 "2016-12-21T19:13:58Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Except, in 2016, that seems to mean treating her the same way in both places. Bowing or curtsying is not socially mandatory in her realms, nor is it actually socially forbidden in the USA. > > [The royal website is pretty lax about it.](https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family) > > It’s no different in the USA, except I guess you could flip which version is our “traditional form.” If the Queen says something different from my mother, _the Queen is wrong_. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/34 "2016-12-22T01:24:21Z")
So you’ll bow to her until she starts saying something different from your mother? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/35 "2016-12-22T03:20:01Z")
went to premier league soccer game in London and the main difference I noticed from US sporting event was there was no national anthem before the game. I don’t know if any other country besides the US plays the anthem before games. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/36 "2016-12-22T03:52:30Z")
It’s usual at international games (Ireland -v- France, that kind of thing). The anthems of both (or all) countries participating are played, natch. Otherwise, not so much. Why would a domestic sporting contest be considered a state occasion? But it does happen a bit. Here in Australia, for example, the national anthem is played at AFL finals games, but not at regular games throughout the season. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/37 "2016-12-22T04:56:14Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I don’t know if any other country besides the US plays the anthem before games. Very common in Canada, at both the professional and minor-league levels. In fact, if a Canadian team is playing a US team (as often happens in hockey and baseball), both the Canadian and US anthems are played before the game. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/38 "2016-12-22T05:16:14Z")
Anyone was free **not** to kowtow to Genghis or any of the little Khans. Even the most stubborn freedom-loving American might choose to do so of his own free will though. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/39 "2016-12-22T08:18:42Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I don’t know if any other country besides the US plays the anthem before games. Spain does it for the final of any tournament called _Copa del Rey_, “King’s Cup” (specific name changes with the title of the head of state, they used to be _del Generalísimo_ and will eventually be _de la Reina_), but that’s because he’s presiding the game and the whole tournament is supposed to be in his honor/sponsored by him. We’re not so much playing the country’s anthem as the presiding guy’s theme song 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/40 "2016-12-22T08:40:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If either of us choose not to follow expected protocol then exactly the same sanctions will apply…nothing. Well, you might not be invited to similar formal occasions in the future. But that’s about it. Of course, in some occasions constitutional requirements override not following the protocol at past occasions. The initiation to the Privy Council in the UK traditionally requires new appointees to kneel before the Queen and kiss her hands, which some republican-minded Privy Councillors, such as recently Jeremy Corbyn, have [refused to do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom#Privy_Council_oath_and_initiation_rite). Nonetheless, Corbyn’s constitutional role as Leader of the Opposition (and maybe Prime Minister one day) makes it impossible for the Queen to shun him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041.md?page=3)