# Not bowing to queen/king **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041 "2016-12-18T15:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/41 "2016-12-22T11:58:50Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It’s usual at international games (Ireland -v- France, that kind of thing). The anthems of both (or all) countries participating are played, natch. > > Otherwise, not so much. Why would a domestic sporting contest be considered a state occasion? But it does happen a bit. Here in Australia, for example, the national anthem is played at AFL finals games, but not at regular games throughout the season. In Europe National Anthems are played before Football Cup finals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/42 "2016-12-22T13:40:44Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So you’ll bow to her until she starts saying something different from your mother? I don’t bow to any monarch, because I am an American citizen. I don’t bow to my mother because then she scolds me about my posture. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/43 "2016-12-22T14:29:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The US recognizes no titles of distinction - any citizen is the social equal of any King or Queen. Well, American custom _does_ recognise diplomatic protocol, which draws a distinction between heads of state and non-heads of state. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/44 "2016-12-22T16:23:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Or they walk holding hands with the foreign king, as Dubya famously did with the King of Saudi Arabia. (Not meant as a slam at Dubya; simply a good example of an American, president no less, adapting to local customs of respect.) And the smooching! Don’t forget the smooching!: [LLCVega - Navigate the LLC Formation Maze](http://rs105.pbsrc.com/albums/m214/johno1count/bushkissingsaudiking.jpg~c200) > [@Shodan](#): > > They are if that is their formal social title. > Americans treat them as monarchs - but not our monarchs. The Queen of England is treated as the Queen of England, and not the Queen of America or Americans… Better yet, treat her as the British (or Canadian, or Australian…) Queen. Perennial nitpick: there hasn’t been a “Queen of England” since 1707: [Anne, Queen of Great Britain - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/45 "2016-12-22T16:56:11Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Anyone was free **not** to kowtow to Genghis or any of the little Khans. Even the most stubborn freedom-loving American might choose to do so of his own free will though. Yes, but in that case Genghis or the little Khans were equally free to hang you up by your heels and have you flayed alive, stubborn freedom-loving American or not. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/46 "2016-12-23T17:03:38Z")
Small data point. The annual Royal Variety concert was on a couple of nights ago. HRH Prince of Wales was in attendance. One of the performers was Lady Gaga. She curtsied, and quite deeply, during the introduction of performers at the end. Of course, she _is_ a Lady, after all… ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/47 "2017-03-06T01:30:25Z")
Back in 1981 Nancy Reagan got chided by the British press for not giving the Queen a curtsy. The papers were upset, but not so much Buckingham Palace. > **[BRITISH PRESS CHIDES MRS. REAGAN ON PROTOCOL (Published 1981)](https://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/26/world/british-press-chides-mrs-reagan-on-protocol.html)** As the above article mentions, the American press got upset when Mrs. Annenberg, American Chief of Protocol, curtsied to the Prince of Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/48 "2017-03-06T02:33:58Z")
I don’t have to bow to her But, she is the Queen after all, a head of state, so i would give her a bow. It isn’t acknowledging she has position over me or anything, not doing it would feel kind of like a rude gesture when the lady has done nothing to me. Now i would not kneel before her, because i am not subject to her and she has no station over me, but i really don’t expect she would even ask that. I would probably try to follow any customary greeting as long as it was not offensive or degrading. I wouldn’t like our representatives going someplace and being treat rudely ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/49 "2017-03-06T03:36:16Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Back in 1981 Nancy Reagan got chided by the British press for not giving the Queen a curtsy. The papers were upset, but not so much Buckingham Palace. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/26/world/british-press-chides-mrs-reagan-on-protocol.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/26/world/british-press-chides-mrs-reagan-on-protocol.html) > > As the above article mentions, the American press got upset when Mrs. Annenberg, American Chief of Protocol, curtsied to the Prince of Wales. Before that there was Martha Mitchell, the colorful wife of Nixon Attorney-General John Mitchell. She was pretty brash about not bowing to Queen Elizabeth. Or curtsying. Whatever you do. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/50 "2017-03-06T07:05:58Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Now i would not kneel before her, because i am not subject to her and she has no station over me, but i really don’t expect she would even ask that. You are not supposed to kneel before a monarch anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/51 "2017-03-06T07:52:24Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > went to premier league soccer game in London and the main difference I noticed from US sporting event was there was no national anthem before the game. > > I don’t know if any other country besides the US plays the anthem before games. I believe Britain and Commonwealth countries played the national anthem at the cinema and it was good form to stand [knowledge based largely on an Alf Garnet film where he caused a right kerfuffle at the pictures]. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/52 "2017-03-06T11:08:23Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You are not supposed to kneel before a monarch anyway. Only for very formal ceremonies, such as taking a personal oath of allegiance at the Coronation or if you’re being appointed Prime Minister (there may be some other appointments where this happens - my degree ceremony at Cambridge involved something similar, a sort of hangover from monastic days, I think). Or if you’re being knighted, but that’s a matter of practicality, since HMQ is much shorter than almost everyone she has to touch with a sword. She wouldn’t want to slice your ear off. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/53 "2017-03-06T11:19:49Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > I believe Britain and Commonwealth countries played the national anthem at the cinema and it was good form to stand [knowledge based largely on an Alf Garnet film where he caused a right kerfuffle at the pictures]. I suspect this came in during the First World War, and for a long time it was customary to start or end almost any public performance with the national anthem. In the cinema, it would be played at the end of the evening’s performance, which could lead to [an unseemly steeplechase](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=68fsutiG9L0#t=109) as people tried to find their way around staunch patriots standing to attention, in order to get to the pub before closing time or to catch the last bus. The habit finally died in the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/54 "2017-03-06T11:26:13Z")
Oh, and there’s a campaign on in India at the moment to make people stand for the national anthem in cinemas, following a Supreme Court ruling: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2AK5bVIxU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2AK5bVIxU) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/55 "2017-03-06T11:36:38Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > The habit finally died in the 1960s. The national anthem in the cinema must have hung on a bit longer than that because I was born in 1968 and can remember it getting played. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/56 "2017-03-06T13:25:42Z")
In Canada, O Canada was still being played in theatres in Kingston Ontario in the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041/57 "2017-03-06T13:55:39Z")
[This](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0970/3472/files/52_1_Kopi_6bceae76-b850-4393-8ac9-43869fcce301_1024x1024.jpg?v=1487680277) pretty well sums up the situation in Norway with regards to royalty. I’ve met our king Harald a few years back, and this was pretty much the extent of it, as far as formal greetings were required 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-bowing-to-queen-king/775041.md?page=2)