# Not having children and your outlook on life **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075 "2010-10-05T01:54:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/302 "2010-10-12T22:33:43Z")
I was wondering the exact same thing. \*\*Cat Whisperer \*\*- care to share? What the hell happened? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/303 "2010-10-12T22:41:01Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > I don’t get it. You claim that disliking children and parents doesn’t require you to sacrifice much - but in the same post, state that it is inevitable that your favourite sister will be alienated from your life by having a kid, and that you have lost friends to childbearing. > > > > There is cognitive dissonance at work here. I would have thought that an issue that lost me my friends and alienated me from my favorite siblings is one that caused major sacrifices indeed. > > There is a certain type of mumsy who cannot discuss anything but the contents of Junior’s shit. When such a person no longer reaches out their childless friends, I posit it is not the fault of the childless individual. They have become indescribably boring and tiresome. because they literally have _no_ other topic of conversation. > > More often though, parents simply have no time for socializing when their children are young. This is the “Mommy Hole” - your friends drop into a hole and re-emerge when their child gets his/her driver’s license. They socialize virtually only with parents, because socializing with people you know through your children is convenient and the least work. > > Not everyone falls into the Mommy Hole. But a lot of people do, and a lot of it is to do with parents stretched too thin keeping their lives in order; they only have so much energy to go around and no one’s to blame, but certainly not the non-parent of the friend-team. It’s the second one - I’m still available and willing to socialize with friends and family with kids, but they disappear on me. I don’t completely give them a free pass on the “no time for socializing” thing, either - you have no time for a call a couple of times a year? No time for any emails at all? Really? I’m not a demanding friend, but there has to be _some_ reciprocity. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/304 "2010-10-12T22:46:11Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > > This is absolutely true. My childfree by choice social group has had restaurant reservations refused in the past when they found out that we were a childfree by choice group. > > Wow, that’s insane. How was it presented to you guys by the staff, and how did they find out who you were? I would have thought a childfree group would be more welcome in a restaurant than a kid, who eats a cheap $5 meal and makes a bigger mess than the adult who orders a $15 meal and possibly a 5 drink. In my eyes, at least, childfree means more all around. We have a dinner out about once a month for the group, and we often book a reservation at small restaurants. When making the reservation, it has happened a couple of times that the person taking the reservation asked us what our group was, heard it was a childfree by choice social group, and just told us we weren’t welcome - it was a family establishment, and if we don’t like kids, they don’t like us sort of deal. It stunned me, too, to hear of this going on - I don’t know if they thought we would actively yell at any kids in the restaurant, or what. The other possibility is that we were booking at an ethnic place, and that particular ethnicity is more family-oriented than others, and our stance is insulting to them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/305 "2010-10-12T23:24:35Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > There is a certain type of mumsy who cannot discuss anything but the contents of Junior’s shit. When such a person no longer reaches out their childless friends, I posit it is not the fault of the childless individual. They have become indescribably boring and tiresome. because they literally have _no_ other topic of conversation. > > More often though, parents simply have no time for socializing when their children are young. This is the “Mommy Hole” - your friends drop into a hole and re-emerge when their child gets his/her driver’s license. They socialize virtually only with parents, because socializing with people you know through your children is convenient and the least work. > > Not everyone falls into the Mommy Hole. But a lot of people do, and a lot of it is to do with parents stretched too thin keeping their lives in order; they only have so much energy to go around and no one’s to blame, but certainly not the non-parent of the friend-team. Absolutely there is a tendency for parents to have less time for socializing. Yet my wife and I somehow manage the feat of maintaining friendships with non-parents, so it is at least possible. When someone states as a given that they will lose touch with a favourite sibling _before_ they even have the kid, I don’t think I’m entirely off-base in suggesting that their declared attitude of dislike for children (and parents) may have _something_ to do with it. Perhaps the expressed dislike of children and parents may be a factor in parents with children losing touch, where they may have stayed in touch without the dislike? Seems logical enough to me - I doubt I’d go through much effort to remain in touch with someone I knew disliked my kid or me, any more than I’d expect my childfree-by-choice friends to keep in touch if I expressed distain for their lifestyle choice. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/306 "2010-10-13T00:53:14Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > We have a dinner out about once a month for the group, and we often book a reservation at small restaurants. When making the reservation, it has happened a couple of times that the person taking the reservation asked us what our group was, heard it was a childfree by choice social group, and just told us we weren’t welcome - it was a family establishment, and if we don’t like kids, they don’t like us sort of deal. It stunned me, too, to hear of this going on - I don’t know if they thought we would actively yell at any kids in the restaurant, or what. The other possibility is that we were booking at an ethnic place, and that particular ethnicity is more family-oriented than others, and our stance is insulting to them. That is completely asinine. I would have thought that BS only happened at a place like Applebees or King’s or Olive Garden. Barf. Really just reinforces the idea that a lot of small businesses aren’t always about the bottom line, but about catering to a specific subset of people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/307 "2010-10-13T01:18:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Hello\_Again](#): > > > > There is a certain type of mumsy who cannot discuss anything but the contents of Junior’s shit. When such a person no longer reaches out their childless friends, I posit it is not the fault of the childless individual. They have become indescribably boring and tiresome. because they literally have _no_ other topic of conversation. > > > > More often though, parents simply have no time for socializing when their children are young. This is the “Mommy Hole” - your friends drop into a hole and re-emerge when their child gets his/her driver’s license. They socialize virtually only with parents, because socializing with people you know through your children is convenient and the least work. > > > > Not everyone falls into the Mommy Hole. But a lot of people do, and a lot of it is to do with parents stretched too thin keeping their lives in order; they only have so much energy to go around and no one’s to blame, but certainly not the non-parent of the friend-team. > > Absolutely there is a tendency for parents to have less time for socializing. Yet my wife and I somehow manage the feat of maintaining friendships with non-parents, so it is at least possible. When someone states as a given that they will lose touch with a favourite sibling _before_ they even have the kid, I don’t think I’m entirely off-base in suggesting that their declared attitude of dislike for children (and parents) may have _something_ to do with it. Perhaps the expressed dislike of children and parents may be a factor in parents with children losing touch, where they may have stayed in touch without the dislike? Seems logical enough to me - I doubt I’d go through much effort to remain in touch with someone I knew disliked my kid or me, any more than I’d expect my childfree-by-choice friends to keep in touch if I expressed distain for their lifestyle choice. You’re making a big, incorrect assumption there - childfree by choice (CBC) people don’t go around stating to anyone who will listen that they don’t like kids. There are a lot of CBC people who like kids just fine, and I assume that the childless people who can’t have kids even though they’ve tried usually like them. Even those of us who don’t care much for kids certainly don’t go shouting it around everywhere. Expressing a dislike for children is Not Done these days. ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/308 "2010-10-13T01:27:25Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Expressing a dislike for children is Not Done these days. Actually, I was banned from a different Board because I made a reference to Jonathan Swift’s _Modest Proposal_ in a black comedy-sort-of-way and another on the board knew I didn’t care for kids… I’ve had a running joke with my _close_ friends that I love children; served with a light beurre blanc and garlic mashed potatoes. 😉 But I am also a God Mother and my friends know that I am fine around children and quite good with them in small doses. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/309 "2010-10-13T01:39:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If you dislike children, and parents (because, as someone alleged upthread, parents always talk about their kids), _most_ normal human social interactions become more problematic - one’s family is likely to contain children and parents; one’s co-workers, employees, bosses are likely to be parents with children; your classmates and professors may well be parents; public places swarm with families with children, etc. etc. > > Certainly, it is possible to structure one’s life so as to avoid them whenever possible, but it would I think involve making a bunch of sacrifices, which (unless you are truly unlucky) you would not have to make if you say disapproved of Truthers. Well, and I say this with no snark at all, you’re wrong about that. I am very active in the Chicago arts community, as well as my spiritual community. They are where I spend the vast majority of my time, and are where my heart lies, really. I know literally hundreds of people between the two, and am good friends with a number of them. Thinking about the two “innermost rings” of these circles (close friends, and colleagues I enjoy the company of and spend time with on a regular basis), I can think of maybe a handful who I know have children. One good friend has a daughter who was in HS when I met them (now in college), and was always exceptionally mature, so as far as I was concerned she has always been an adult. Another really close friend has kids, but I’ve never met them, and they’re mentioned so rarely that I’m not even sure how many she has beyond “more than one.” The others who happened to mention they have kids, I interact with in a professional/networking context, so other than mention of the kids existence at one point or other (which is a non-issue AFAIC), we don’t talk about them. We talk about filmmaking/photography/marketing ourselves/etc. I’ve never met these kids. I’d have to actually go out of my way to find parents who can’t talk about anything but their kids, or parents with kids always in tow, and I’m rather too busy to do that. I honestly wouldn’t even know where to look. I also find myself wondering why in hell your boss is talking about their kids on the job instead of dealing with work. I generally never even found out about my bosses’ marital status, nevermind hearing lengthy irrelevant-to-work stories about junior. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/310 "2010-10-13T04:53:24Z")
[quote=“Cat\_Whisperer, post:307, topic:556075”] > [@Malthus](#): > > You’re making a big, incorrect assumption there - childfree by choice (CBC) people don’t go around stating to anyone who will listen that they don’t like kids. There are a lot of CBC people who like kids just fine, and I assume that the childless people who can’t have kids even though they’ve tried usually like them. Even those of us who don’t care much for kids certainly don’t go shouting it around everywhere. Expressing a dislike for children is Not Done these days. Yeah, this. I don’t have kids because I don’t want them. But I’m going to stay with my sister and BiL for an extended period and can’t wait to chill with my little nephew. He’s the coolest. I’m still glad that I’m not his parent - I can always hand him back over. A line from an Anthrax song comes to mind (Sound of White Noise album, I believe): _You can’t take care of yourself How could you care for me_ I can take care of myself, but adding a kid to the equation is a major complicating factor for everyone. Perhaps more people should think about this before deciding to have them. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/311 "2010-10-13T13:08:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Expressing a dislike for children is Not Done these days. This thread is a perfect example. The OP wanted to talk about how not having children impacts people’s outlook on life, look how many people came in to this thread, knowing what the subject is, and got pissy about it. And how many people started casting judgment. Even on an anonymous message board, in a thread about not having children, we can’t have a discussion without a least a couple of snarks about “dying alone” and “no meaning in your life w/out kids”. **Malthus** you’re being polite and reasonable, but you are still trying to judge people who dislike children as if there is something wrong with that mindset. Maybe its not a mindset that works for you, but it may be one that works for others, that they don’t find limiting in the least. The best thing to say is “I don’t agree and it wouldn’t work for my life, but whatever floats your boat”. Quite frankly, I think the world would be a hugely better place if **everyone** learned how to say and believe the truth of that phrase. So let’s all repeat after me: I don’t agree and it wouldn’t work for my life, but whatever floats your boat. 😃 bonus points to **GiantRat** for working in anything about Anthrax! (I really miss Joey Belladonna, its not the same Anthrax without him, for me.) ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/312 "2010-10-13T20:44:48Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > > [@Kolga](#): > > > > Well, I travel, make and keep friends, garden, craft, hike, camp, read, create, play musical instruments, teach, learn, grow, explore… > > .. > > Everybody does those things. Funny, I _stopped_ doing a lot of those things once I had kids. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/313 "2010-10-13T22:48:03Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > Everybody does those things. > > Funny, I _stopped_ doing a lot of those things once I had kids. :smack: Not me, even with a baby son I still travel, make and keep friends, garden, craft, create, play musical instruments, teach, learn, grow, explore. . . I don’t hike or camp, but then I never did. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/314 "2010-10-13T23:16:00Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > > [@Pazu](#): > > > > Funny, I _stopped_ doing a lot of those things once I had kids. :smack: > > Not me, even with a baby son I still travel, make and keep friends, garden, craft, create, play musical instruments, teach, learn, grow, explore. . . I don’t hike or camp, but then I never did. Well, I guess you win, then. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/315 "2010-10-14T10:47:54Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Everybody does those things. Mostly everybody has kids, too. Nothing impressive about it. Neither gardening nor parenting is necessary to a full and happy life. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/316 "2010-10-14T16:20:25Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > Everybody does those things. > > Mostly everybody has kids, too. Nothing impressive about it. Neither gardening nor parenting is necessary to a full and happy life. Absolutely true. However, having children doesn’t prevent you from having an exciting life filled with travel, books, etc., which is what some childfree people seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/317 "2010-10-14T16:31:11Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > Mostly everybody has kids, too. Nothing impressive about it. Neither gardening nor parenting is necessary to a full and happy life. > > Absolutely true. > > However, having children doesn’t prevent you from having an exciting life filled with travel, books, etc., which is what some childfree people seem to think. And I think that because most of the parents I know are constantly complaining about how they don’t have the time or money anymore to travel, read, hike, camp, etc. I have a friend who used to be the King of Downloads. He’s got a couple of external hard drives filled with music. Probably has 50,000 mp3s. He had a couple of kids and now he’s completely out of touch with the music scene. I had to burn him CDs because he doesn’t have time to research and follow new bands all the time anymore. He’s perfectly happy being a Daddy. I’m just saying. Whenever I talk about stuff I do as a single childfree person, the married parents all express their jealousy that they aren’t able to do those things anymore. My sister has no idea what to do with herself when there’s no husband and kids around. She finally started picking up books that she put down last when she was pregnant with the first kid, who is now 20. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/318 "2010-10-14T16:48:19Z")
Eh, people gotta find something to be judgemental about. The whole parenting = fulfillment vs. childfreeeee! wheeee! standoff in this thread is no different from people who can cook well looking down on people who can’t boil water, or people who grow all their own veggies looking down on people who don’t know which end is up on a carrot. Now, if you’ll excuse me, please, I need to run outside and gather some chives and dig up new potatoes for my \. I’m having a simple lunch today, nothing fancy. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/319 "2010-10-14T17:14:11Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Eh, people gotta find something to be judgemental about. The whole parenting = fulfillment vs. childfreeeee! wheeee! standoff in this thread is no different from people who can cook well looking down on people who can’t boil water, or people who grow all their own veggies looking down on people who don’t know which end is up on a carrot. To be fair, it could also be seen as people who _can’t_ looking down on people who _can_ - which comes off as rank reverse arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/320 "2010-10-14T17:50:35Z")
Well, ftr, I’m not looking down on anyone. I’m just sayin’, the parents I know don’t make parenthood look very appealing. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/321 "2010-10-14T18:08:05Z")
I think people are just people, in the end. People need to see the silver lining in whatever life choices they’ve made. So childless people sometimes reflect on the good fortune they enjoy in NOT being exposed to every public school germ in existence. And the childed sometimes reflect on how shallow must be the lives of those who have no child to give their lives ‘true’ meaning. It’s not always about being judgmental or feeling superior. And, people being people, it’s all too simple to fend off any budding resentment, of life choices we’ve made, by demeaning those of others. The parented would do well to remember not every childless couple is so by choice. And some people choose not to be parents in an attempt to break a cycle, convinced they would be no better parents than their own bad parents were. They may not be willing to share this tidbit with all and sundry. If they think they’d be a shitty parent and so choose not to be, that’s the very definition of not being “selfish”. And the childless would do well to remember that those pushing them, to have a child, only want for them, the joy that parenting has brought to their lives. If everyone could just drop the judgment this would be a decent discussion. Other people’s choices are not an indictment of your choices. Period. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075.md?page=17)