# Not having children and your outlook on life **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075 "2010-10-05T01:54:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/322 "2010-10-14T19:37:33Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > Mostly everybody has kids, too. Nothing impressive about it. Neither gardening nor parenting is necessary to a full and happy life. > > Absolutely true. > > However, having children doesn’t prevent you from having an exciting life filled with travel, books, etc., which is what some childfree people seem to think. Add the word “necessarily” between “doesn’t” and “prevent” and I’ll agree with you. But don’t you think it might have a little to do with the sorts of things the parent(s) in question found exciting and rewarding in life prior to having kids? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/323 "2010-10-14T20:20:38Z")
> [@Pazu](#): > > > [@suranyi](#): > > > > Absolutely true. > > > > However, having children doesn’t prevent you from having an exciting life filled with travel, books, etc., which is what some childfree people seem to think. > > Add the word “necessarily” between “doesn’t” and “prevent” and I’ll agree with you. > > But don’t you think it might have a little to do with the sorts of things the parent(s) in question found exciting and rewarding in life prior to having kids? Yep, I agree in all respects. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/324 "2010-10-14T20:31:13Z")
Um, one would think that becoming a parent to a severely disabled child might put a damper on that whole exciting travel stuff. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/325 "2010-10-14T20:41:01Z")
Sure it would. That’s why people generally don’t plan on having severely disabled children. And certainly severe disability is a rare enough outcome that it doesn’t really make a suitable ‘gotchya, why didn’t you think of that, huh?’ to toss at people who are simply saying that parenting doesn’t necessarily mean buying a minivan and resigning the remaining weekends of your life to pee wee soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/326 "2010-10-15T01:05:59Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > \ > And the childless would do well to remember that those pushing them, to have a child, only want for them, the joy that parenting has brought to their lives.\ Do you honestly think that that’s the only reason that parents pester other people about having kids? I don’t. Not for a second. > [@DianaG](#): > > \parenting doesn’t necessarily mean buying a minivan and resigning the remaining weekends of your life to pee wee soccer. It doesn’t have to, but it sure seems like it does. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/327 "2010-10-15T03:23:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@elbows](#): > > > > \ > > And the childless would do well to remember that those pushing them, to have a child, only want for them, the joy that parenting has brought to their lives.\ > > Do you honestly think that that’s the only reason that parents pester other people about having kids? I don’t. Not for a second. > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > \parenting doesn’t necessarily mean buying a minivan and resigning the remaining weekends of your life to pee wee soccer. > > It doesn’t have to, but it sure seems like it does. 🙂 Now, be fair: some weekends are occupied with play-dates and birthday parties. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/328 "2010-10-15T03:31:28Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > I’m just saying. Whenever I talk about stuff I do as a single childfree person, the married parents all express their jealousy that they aren’t able to do those things anymore. My sister has no idea what to do with herself when there’s no husband and kids around. She finally started picking up books that she put down last when she was pregnant with the first kid, who is now 20. It wasn’t till I was 19 or so that I started listening to my parents’ stories of what they did before us. They had ridiculously cool lives! Granted, they were engaged for 5 years and my dad was making good money at the time, so they traveled all over and ate out constantly and had a memorable time doing it. My youngest brother is in high school and they’re finally becoming “people” again, but for 20 years they essentially worked and spent time with us and spent time taking care of us. That’s a _huge_ sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/329 "2010-10-15T04:25:19Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Do you honestly think that that’s the only reason that parents pester other people about having kids? I don’t. Not for a second. So, what IS the reason that people with kids pester other people about having children? They want to see them suffer? As a parent, I am extremely careful not to urge others to follow my choices. Actually, I try to follow that rule with respect to everything: I don’t tell people they should get married, move abroad, take up music lessons, etc. etc. I will admit, though, that this takes a little bit of effort on my part - especially because I was so horrified by the thought of becoming a parent for many years, and then when I finally did I saw how fantastic and rewarding it is - nothing at all like the horror I imagined. Under the circumstances, it does take some self-control not to encourage everyone to become a parent, but my motivation is pure: I really DO think it adds a fantastic dimension to life, and I would love to see other people experience the happiness that I have had. We all know that urging others to have children, however well-intentioned, is just plain wrong. I didn’t appreciate it when I was childless and others did it to me, and I absolutely do not do it to anyone else now. But I can’t imagine any other reason for urging people to have kids than wanting to share joy. (I’m leaving out immediate family members - they could have all sorts of twisted motivations.) What ARE these evil forces that you are darkly hinting at? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/330 "2010-10-15T04:51:58Z")
**Cairo** , you seem like a genuinely nice person, and I don’t doubt that your motivations would be pure, but there are many people in the world who regret having kids and regret the changes that have been forced on them and are bitter and angry, and some of those people also pester other people to have kids to share the misery, rather than the joy. I couldn’t even speculate on the percentages of good versus bad motivations, but to state that all people who bother other people about having kids are doing it out of good intentions seems unrealistic to me. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/331 "2010-10-15T04:58:30Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > If you dislike children, and parents (because, as someone alleged upthread, parents always talk about their kids), _most_ normal human social interactions become more problematic - one’s family is likely to contain children and parents; one’s co-workers, employees, bosses are likely to be parents with children; your classmates and professors may well be parents; public places swarm with families with children, etc. etc. > > > > Certainly, it is possible to structure one’s life so as to avoid them whenever possible, but it would I think involve making a bunch of sacrifices, which (unless you are truly unlucky) you would not have to make if you say disapproved of Truthers. > > Well, and I say this with no snark at all, you’re wrong about that. > > I am very active in the Chicago arts community, as well as my spiritual community. They are where I spend the vast majority of my time, and are where my heart lies, really. I know literally hundreds of people between the two, and am good friends with a number of them. > > Thinking about the two “innermost rings” of these circles (close friends, and colleagues I enjoy the company of and spend time with on a regular basis), I can think of maybe a handful who I know have children. One good friend has a daughter who was in HS when I met them (now in college), and was always exceptionally mature, so as far as I was concerned she has always been an adult. Another really close friend has kids, but I’ve never met them, and they’re mentioned so rarely that I’m not even sure how many she has beyond “more than one.” The others who happened to mention they have kids, I interact with in a professional/networking context, so other than mention of the kids existence at one point or other (which is a non-issue AFAIC), we don’t talk about them. We talk about filmmaking/photography/marketing ourselves/etc. I’ve never met these kids. > > I’d have to actually go out of my way to find parents who can’t talk about anything but their kids, or parents with kids always in tow, and I’m rather too busy to do that. I honestly wouldn’t even know where to look. > > I also find myself wondering why in hell your boss is talking about their kids on the job instead of dealing with work. I generally never even found out about my bosses’ marital status, nevermind hearing lengthy irrelevant-to-work stories about junior. Same here; among my friends, having kids is very unusual. Yes, I’m a lesbian, but my lesbian acquaintances are more likely to have kids than the straight ones. My daughter’s 12 and none of my close friends have kids anywhere near her age - most of them don’t have kids at all. (Childless and childfree seem to me to be equally value-ridden). I thought the OP was more about significant changes in outlook, like, can you have a long-term view just as well via nieces and nephews or unrelated children as you can via your own children? Do children factor into this long-term view at all? One poster earlier did address this point, but that was only one person and it was very general. That’s a much more interesting point than the endless rehash of ‘is it better to have children or not?’ The OP didn’t ask that. Instead, everyone chose to respond to one comment (Leaffan’s, if you hadn’t guessed), which was still being quoted verbatim 178 posts later after a clarification and about 80 responses. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/332 "2010-10-15T05:06:09Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > I thought the OP was more about significant changes in outlook, like, can you have a long-term view just as well via nieces and nephews or unrelated children as you can via your own children? Do children factor into this long-term view at all? > > One poster earlier did address this point, but that was only one person and it was very general. > > That’s a much more interesting point than the endless rehash of ‘is it better to have children or not?’ The OP didn’t ask that. > > Instead, everyone chose to respond to one comment (Leaffan’s, if you hadn’t guessed), which was still being quoted verbatim 178 posts later after a clarification and about 80 responses. There has certainly been a mix of responses to my question and the general debate about ‘kids or no kids’ which I probably should have expected. You’ve pretty much got my intention down there, I realize that my life has been structured with the understanding that I will not be having children. I figured other people probably approached their life differently either because they plan to have children or because they know it’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/333 "2010-10-15T13:37:09Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Everything. > > It sounds kinda a meaningless, pointless, lonely, directionless, empty life, and who the heck is going to get all your money and family heirlooms when a childless person dies? What was the point of having accumulated a fortune if no kids or grandkids are going to get it? > > I can not imagine how pointless EVERYthing would seem. So the reason I should have kids is so someone can keep my useless crap when I’m dead? Life is only as meaningless, pointless, lonely, directionless, and empty as you make it. I know plenty of childless people who have fulfilling and interesting careers, lots of friends and tons of activities and interests. In many ways, their lives seem a lot more fullfilling than many married and child-full people who seem to have no life outside of raising their children. Unless you are independently wealthy, raising kids is a time consuming and expensive process. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/334 "2010-10-15T14:01:52Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > If you dislike children, and parents (because, as someone alleged upthread, parents always talk about their kids), _most_ normal human social interactions become more problematic - one’s family is likely to contain children and parents; one’s co-workers, employees, bosses are likely to be parents with children; your classmates and professors may well be parents; public places swarm with families with children, etc. etc. > > > > Certainly, it is possible to structure one’s life so as to avoid them whenever possible, but it would I think involve making a bunch of sacrifices, which (unless you are truly unlucky) you would not have to make if you say disapproved of Truthers. > > Well, and I say this with no snark at all, you’re wrong about that. > > I am very active in the Chicago arts community, as well as my spiritual community. They are where I spend the vast majority of my time, and are where my heart lies, really. I know literally hundreds of people between the two, and am good friends with a number of them. > > Thinking about the two “innermost rings” of these circles (close friends, and colleagues I enjoy the company of and spend time with on a regular basis), I can think of maybe a handful who I know have children. One good friend has a daughter who was in HS when I met them (now in college), and was always exceptionally mature, so as far as I was concerned she has always been an adult. Another really close friend has kids, but I’ve never met them, and they’re mentioned so rarely that I’m not even sure how many she has beyond “more than one.” The others who happened to mention they have kids, I interact with in a professional/networking context, so other than mention of the kids existence at one point or other (which is a non-issue AFAIC), we don’t talk about them. We talk about filmmaking/photography/marketing ourselves/etc. I’ve never met these kids. > > I’d have to actually go out of my way to find parents who can’t talk about anything but their kids, or parents with kids always in tow, and I’m rather too busy to do that. I honestly wouldn’t even know where to look. > > I also find myself wondering why in hell your boss is talking about their kids on the job instead of dealing with work. I generally never even found out about my bosses’ marital status, nevermind hearing lengthy irrelevant-to-work stories about junior. Heh, it is certainly true that you can find a social circle which consists only of people more or less like you - if you have that freedom. No doubt, if I disliked (say) women, I could find a social circle that consisted solely of men. But there will be some cases, such as one’s own family, where such self-selection will not be possible - you don’t get a choice as to whether or not you have (say) a sister, of you dislike women, or if your sister chooses to have a child, if you dislike children. The point here is that such a dislike imposes _constraints_. If you are lucky, and careful, there is nothing stopping you from living within those constraints - but in this very thread was someone lamenting that they were bound to lose touch with their sister because of this very issue. It is unrealistic to expect that everyone has the ability to “live within an arts community” consisting solely of non-parents. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/335 "2010-10-15T14:11:36Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > > Expressing a dislike for children is Not Done these days. > > This thread is a perfect example. The OP wanted to talk about how not having children impacts people’s outlook on life, look how many people came in to this thread, knowing what the subject is, and got pissy about it. And how many people started casting judgment. Even on an anonymous message board, in a thread about not having children, we can’t have a discussion without a least a couple of snarks about “dying alone” and “no meaning in your life w/out kids”. > > **Malthus** you’re being polite and reasonable, but you are still trying to judge people who dislike children as if there is something wrong with that mindset. Maybe its not a mindset that works for you, but it may be one that works for others, that they don’t find limiting in the least. The best thing to say is “I don’t agree and it wouldn’t work for my life, but whatever floats your boat”. > > Quite frankly, I think the world would be a hugely better place if **everyone** learned how to say and believe the truth of that phrase. So let’s all repeat after me: I don’t agree and it wouldn’t work for my life, but whatever floats your boat. 😃 You aren’t reading what I’m writing. I expressly _haven’t_ “judged” anyone who dislikes kids. In fact, I think “judging” people who dislike some subgroup of humanity is a totally futile exercise. If someone dislikes women, of Blacks, or children - in no case should they be _judged_ for it, for the simple reason that one has no concious choice about what one likes and dislikes. I reserve “judgment” for things people _do_ - not “I dislike children”, but “every time I see a child, I kick him or her”. 😉 My sole point is that having such a dislike is limiting, for the very simple reason that children, and parents, are a common part of our society. You can certainly arrange your affairs so that you never have to know any parents or children - except in public - but doing so is, effectively, limiting your choices. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/336 "2010-10-15T14:26:12Z")
_Everything_ we choose in life narrows our choices going forward. Choosing not to socialize with children limits one’s social life considerably less than having small children does, after all. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but the really _good_ parties are for the grownups. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/337 "2010-10-15T14:41:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > It sounds kinda a meaningless, pointless, lonely, directionless, empty life, and who the heck is going to get all your money and family heirlooms when a childless person dies? What was the point of having accumulated a fortune if no kids or grandkids are going to get it? > > I can not imagine how pointless EVERYthing would seem. > > So the reason I should have kids is so someone can keep my useless crap when I’m dead? > > Life is only as meaningless, pointless, lonely, directionless, and empty as you make it. I know plenty of childless people who have fulfilling and interesting careers, lots of friends and tons of activities and interests. In many ways, their lives seem a lot more fullfilling than many married and child-full people who seem to have no life outside of raising their children. Unless you are independently wealthy, raising kids is a time consuming and expensive process. I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. On the other hand, I dont mean to imply that most people “\*should \*” have kids. Lots, if not most, parents are so poor or so incompetent or so dishonest or so selfish or so lazy or so dumb that I dont think they should have had kids. In other words, its “ok” for your life to be pointless and meaningless, esp if you dont know what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/338 "2010-10-15T14:44:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > [but in this very thread was someone lamenting that they were bound to lose touch with their sister because of this very issue. It is unrealistic to expect that everyone has the ability to “live within an arts community” consisting solely of non-parents. I think you missed that she was going to lose touch with her sister, because her sister would soon find HER unimportant, rather than any desire of hers to avoid her sister OR her sister’s children. The percentage of people who actively “dislike” children is a very very small fraction of people without children. So I guess you could be correct that it is “limiting” for those people; since I don’t know any, I wouldn’t know. Most people who not-like children are just indifferent to them, and many people without children like children a lot. And there are people who don’t like children, who actually have children whom they clearly loathe, which is sad. And there are parents who only “liked” their children when they were a particular age (usually babies that can’t have their own opinion), and treat them with casual cruelty after that. It takes all sorts of crappy people to make up this world. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/339 "2010-10-15T14:45:53Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. God you must know a tremendous number of entirely pathetic people. Even the Uber-parents I know who are SUPER into kid raising, homeschooling, organic-gardening-for-baby-food-making etc. would not say such an absurd thing. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/340 "2010-10-15T14:48:51Z")
To be fair, some people’s lives are pointless even with kids. Some people are like, batshit crazy Birthers\* and stuff. Some people. \*By which I mean crazy ‘where’s the birth certificate people’, not crazy ‘quiverfull’ people. Although I’m sure there’s some overlap. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/341 "2010-10-15T15:12:40Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > _Everything_ we choose in life narrows our choices going forward. Choosing not to socialize with children limits one’s social life considerably less than having small children does, after all. Of course. But “dislike” carries with it no benefits, unlike some choices (such as having children). Also, it is often not a “choice” in the sense that one cannot help feeling dislike for some group. To my mind, it is more of an ‘affliction’ to dislike some group or category of person. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but the really _good_ parties are for the grownups. Actually, these days I find I enjoy both parties for grownups _and_ parties for the kids. Some events, like birthdays and Christmas, are much more special for the kids, and their enthusiasm is (I find) infectious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075.md?page=18)