# Not having children and your outlook on life **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075 "2010-10-05T01:54:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/342 "2010-10-15T15:19:13Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I think you missed that she was going to lose touch with her sister, because her sister would soon find HER unimportant, rather than any desire of hers to avoid her sister OR her sister’s children. And you don’t think there is any likely causation going the other way? That someone who outright states that the don’t like kids, and then assumes that their sister will lose touch once she has a kid - and there is no causation? Seems like the very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. > [@](#): > > The percentage of people who actively “dislike” children is a very very small fraction of people without children. So I guess you could be correct that it is “limiting” for those people; since I don’t know any, I wouldn’t know. Most people who not-like children are just indifferent to them, and many people without children like children a lot. … which is why I’m limiting my remarks to those who dislike children - several of whom have expressly posted of their dislike in this thread - and not to those without children generally. Obviously these two groups are not the same. Are you seriously of the opinion I think they are? > [@](#): > > And there are people who don’t like children, who actually have children whom they clearly loathe, which is sad. And there are parents who only “liked” their children when they were a particular age (usually babies that can’t have their own opinion), and treat them with casual cruelty after that. > > It takes all sorts of crappy people to make up this world. I do believe it was me who posted that having children and not likeing them is a tragedy. So clearly, I’d agree with you there. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/343 "2010-10-15T15:19:44Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > \ > I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. On the other hand, I dont mean to imply that most people “\*should \*” have kids. Lots, if not most, parents are so poor or so incompetent or so dishonest or so selfish or so lazy or so dumb that I dont think they should have had kids. > > In other words, its “ok” for your life to be pointless and meaningless, esp if you dont know what you are doing. And you guys wonder why some of us childfree people get a little militant. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/344 "2010-10-15T15:21:57Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > \ > > I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. On the other hand, I dont mean to imply that most people “\*should \*” have kids. Lots, if not most, parents are so poor or so incompetent or so dishonest or so selfish or so lazy or so dumb that I dont think they should have had kids. > > > > In other words, its “ok” for your life to be pointless and meaningless, esp if you dont know what you are doing. > > And you guys wonder why some of us childfree people get a little militant. 🙂 It’s the Internet. Anyone looking for a nutter to get militant about can find one here, or have one find them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/345 "2010-10-15T15:32:18Z")
Well, at least this nutter is on the internet so I can just ignore her. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/346 "2010-10-15T15:38:46Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. On the other hand, I dont mean to imply that most people “\*should \*” have kids. Lots, if not most, parents are so poor or so incompetent or so dishonest or so selfish or so lazy or so dumb that I dont think they should have had kids. > > In other words, its “ok” for your life to be pointless and meaningless, esp if you dont know what you are doing. Ah, so you feel comfortable assigning people who are 1) childfree by choice, 2) childless due to inability to bear children, 3) poor parents, 4) bad parents, 5) parents who make mistakes and 6) basically, most people a lesser value than you. You really are a piece of work. Let me know how that sanctimonious holier-than-thou attitude works out for you. You, and people like you, are the reason why those of us who are childless get cranky about having our choices questioned. This blind obsession with reproduction, assigning people value only if they’ve managed to successfully breed, is insulting, demeaning, and degrading. And you don’t even see it. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/347 "2010-10-15T17:01:15Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > I still stand by my original statement that for most people life is pointless without kids. By this statement it’s clear you think I’m wrong in my upthread post, in which I suggest many people find meaning in their lives by engaging in any number of activities unrelated to parenting. More to the point, it’s clear you think that all those people who claim that they themselves find meaning in such activities _are wrong about themselves,_ that _you_ know how _their_ minds work _even better than they do._ This is condescending in the extreme. The many child-free couples and individuals I know would disagree with you, but I guess there’s not much point in pursuing that line of thought, since you simply would refuse to believe what they had to say about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/348 "2010-10-15T17:11:39Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > > [@Dogzilla](#): > > > > I’m just saying. Whenever I talk about stuff I do as a single childfree person, the married parents all express their jealousy that they aren’t able to do those things anymore. My sister has no idea what to do with herself when there’s no husband and kids around. She finally started picking up books that she put down last when she was pregnant with the first kid, who is now 20. > > It wasn’t till I was 19 or so that I started listening to my parents’ stories of what they did before us. They had ridiculously cool lives! Granted, they were engaged for 5 years and my dad was making good money at the time, so they traveled all over and ate out constantly and had a memorable time doing it. My youngest brother is in high school and they’re finally becoming “people” again, but for 20 years they essentially worked and spent time with us and spent time taking care of us. That’s a _huge_ sacrifice. It is. And I just haven’t been hearing that much about the payoff. One would think, if it was such a rewarding endeavor, people would be able to focus on and specify more clearly, just exactly what the payoff is. From my pointless little standpoint… I’m just not gettin’ it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/349 "2010-10-15T17:20:42Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Everything. > > It sounds kinda a meaningless, pointless, lonely, directionless, empty life, and who the heck is going to get all your money and family heirlooms when a childless person dies? What was the point of having accumulated a fortune if no kids or grandkids are going to get it? > > I can not imagine how pointless EVERYthing would seem. Well, my sister’s kids are going to get my money and family heirlooms, if I have any, when I die. I might make an endowment to my alma mater as well, if there’s anything in the estate to endow. I could make all manner of meaningful charitable contributions with this imaginary wealth, so there _is_ a point to accumulating a fortune because you could start a new charity or feed a cause that needs cash. In fact, you don’t even have to be childfree to be charitable. Furthermore, if one isn’t terribly materialistic, not having children really takes the pressure off having to slave away for 40 or 50 years trying to accumulate some wealth just so your kids will have something to inherit. If I don’t want to work long, hard hours in some mindnumbing, boring ass job, then I can take a job I _like_ – even if it doesn’t pay very well – because all I have to worry about feeding and housing is me. I can live on half my income and teach surfing in the afternoons and I don’t have to worry about keeping medical coverage for kids and I don’t have to save for college and if I want to gamble my retirement funds to start a risky new business, I don’t have to drag anyone else down with me if I fail. Suddenly, the universe expands with possibilities and opportunities that I wouldn’t necessarily be able to avail myself of if it meant risking the well-being of my children. I cannot imagine how shackled and imprisoned I would feel if I had to live in terror that I might lose my job, and lose my benefits and suddenly not be able to afford to keep my kid in asthma inhalers or something. Maybe my life is pointless, but at least I’m free. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/350 "2010-10-15T17:53:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You aren’t reading what I’m writing. I expressly _haven’t_ “judged” anyone who dislikes kids. In fact, I think “judging” people who dislike some subgroup of humanity is a totally futile exercise. If someone dislikes women, of Blacks, or children - in no case should they be _judged_ for it, for the simple reason that one has no concious choice about what one likes and dislikes. I reserve “judgment” for things people _do_ - not “I dislike children”, but “every time I see a child, I kick him or her”. 😉 > > My sole point is that having such a dislike is limiting, for the very simple reason that children, and parents, are a common part of our society. You can certainly arrange your affairs so that you never have to know any parents or children - except in public - but doing so is, effectively, limiting your choices. And you are missing my point. My point is that there is literally NO PLACE except in the privacy of my own home, not even on the internet, where I can have a conversation about “not having kids” without some parent coming in to shit on it. But I also disagree: you are passing judgment - the judgment that you think the mindset of not liking kids is limiting. That is your personal perception of the outcome of not liking kids, but it hardly matches up with my experience. So again: its not a choice that works for my life, but whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/351 "2010-10-15T18:04:39Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > And you are missing my point. My point is that there is literally NO PLACE except in the privacy of my own home, not even on the internet, where I can have a conversation about “not having kids” without some parent coming in to shit on it. What, not even on the Internet? On a messageboard where people exchange opinions? Who woulda thunk it? 😃 I’m not saying _anything_ about the issue of not having kids. Not having kids and not liking them are quite different issues. > [@](#): > > But I also disagree: you are passing judgment - the judgment that you think the mindset of not liking kids is limiting. That is your personal perception of the outcome of not liking kids, but it hardly matches up with my experience. > > So again: its not a choice that works for my life, but whatever floats your boat. I’m saying that’s a consequence, yes - if you dislike a sizable subset of people, it is, generally speaking, limiting; that’s a natural consequence. A “judgment” I usually think of more as a statement about the _morality_ of some action or other. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/352 "2010-10-15T18:08:29Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > It is. And I just haven’t been hearing that much about the payoff. One would think, if it was such a rewarding endeavor, people would be able to focus on and specify more clearly, just exactly what the payoff is. From my pointless little standpoint… I’m just not gettin’ it. :dubious: If you would like, I could describe what, from my perspective, I have seen as the “payoff”. Not, mind you, that I’m one to claim that not having kids is “pointless”. Far from it. Each has their plusses and minuses. I’ve done both, since I had my kid later in life (I was 38), and so I feel qualified to address this very point, if you are interested. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/353 "2010-10-15T20:03:15Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > In other words, its “ok” for your life to be pointless and meaningless, esp if you dont know what you are doing. I understand that children bring fulfillment to **your** life. And using your personal frame of reference — barring any evidence to the contrary — I understand the logic of children = fulfillment. The reason you’re getting flak in this thread is in your ignoring of literally hundreds of instances in this thread alone that there are many other things beyond children that bring fulfillment in life. You’ve actually escalated from “I” statements of preference in your original post to universal declarations of worth (quoted here) and denigration of the lives of people whom you know nothing about. It’s not that your views are unpopular, it’s that you’re being intellectually dishonest in your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/354 "2010-10-16T02:21:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > _Everything_ we choose in life narrows our choices going forward. Choosing not to socialize with children limits one’s social life considerably less than having small children does, after all. > > Of course. But “dislike” carries with it no benefits, unlike some choices (such as having children). Also, it is often not a “choice” in the sense that one cannot help feeling dislike for some group. To my mind, it is more of an ‘affliction’ to dislike some group or category of person. Nope, no judging going on here… 😛 I suppose you’ll just have to take my word for it that disliking children just isn’t that limiting in any substantive, life-altering way. They’re pretty easy to avoid, and when I can’t I suck it up and deal. It’s less limiting than getting stuck with petty back-stabbing politicking co-workers, that’s for sure, and most adults are going to have to learn to handle such situations with grace at least once in their lives. I mean, sure, disliking petty people is “limiting” too, but so what? I can’t say that I feel worse off when I avoid groups that include them. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/355 "2010-10-16T02:40:12Z")
To me, not having kids is limiting because for years I had to cover work for so many co-worker parents with sick kids, parent-teacher conferences, doctor appointments, dentist appointments, spring break getaways, … You can discuss among yourselves whether all these kinds of distractions were limiting or… liberating?? … for parents, but they damn sure were a problem for me. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/356 "2010-10-16T02:44:49Z")
That has less to do with kids than it does with shitty office policy, though. If you were expected to cover for parents when they miss work, then they should be expected to cover for you when you do. The reasons why shouldn’t matter, and if it does, then that’s discriminatory. It remains discriminatory whether you like kids or not. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/357 "2010-10-16T02:50:46Z")
No it has more to do that I was the only single, childless person in a department of 15 people. There is no conceivable way that I could have blown as much work time as they did, unless I had my own chronic illness. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075/358 "2010-10-16T05:19:16Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > It is. And I just haven’t been hearing that much about the payoff. One would think, if it was such a rewarding endeavor, people would be able to focus on and specify more clearly, just exactly what the payoff is. From my pointless little standpoint… I’m just not gettin’ it. :dubious: Speaking as a happy parent I don’t think there is any tangible payoff. I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but for me the only real payoff has been the great relationships I have with my kids now that they’re adults. There isn’t any way to balance the huge sacrifice, you don’t _get_ anything at the end except the opportunity to be related to some really cool people, and I think that’s as it should be. Obviously you can easily do that without having children, and many people have really great relationships with family or close friends that are equally amazing and fulfilling. The only thing you’re really missing if you don’t have kids is the opportunity to parent small people. The rest of it, the good stuff, is probably already a part of your life in a different way and you’re not missing anything but the diapers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-having-children-and-your-outlook-on-life/556075.md?page=17)