# Not hiring teachers... bullshit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173 "2011-08-26T13:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/21 "2011-08-26T22:14:16Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I don’t have access to the book now, but the studies on this were covered extensively in Malcolm Gladwell’s _Tipping Point._ It seems that in the beginning, experience matters, but over time, the affect on test scores doesn’t matter as much. Not sure if it applies equally to younger and older grades, though. In the older grades, I feel like you’re just screwed either way. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/22 "2011-08-27T22:49:51Z")
what, are you in Texas or something? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/23 "2011-08-28T11:50:59Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well, I’m pretty sure I can at least avoid driving a company completely into the ground and/or ruining the entire economy, and people doing that are still being paid millions. So, really, I’m a bargain. The news that a company was dumb enough to accept your offer would make its stock worthless overnight, and soon people would be out of work, leading to a knock-on effect leaving elderly widows eating dog food. Why do you want to hurt America? Especially its elderly widow population? They hurt no one. Please stop, **Diogenes the Cynic**. Oh, sorry, **Shot From Guns**. Same thing, really. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/24 "2011-08-28T13:55:31Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She’s cheaper! Are you sure? It’s been my experience that when there’s an opening in a school or a government office that the salary is listed up front, there’s no negotiating. You either take it or leave it. Experience is considered, but not in any meaningful “more money” kind of way. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m trying to remember if my own classroom experiences were enhanced by experienced teachers, but for some reason I can’t. ☹ Thinking back on it, it was an extreme crapshoot for me. I moved up to high school just as many of the long-time teachers were retiring, so I got to see the final years of many of the greats and the first years of a lot of new teachers. Experience didn’t usually make a difference. Sometimes the greats really were great and other times they were clearly over the hill. The same with the first years. Some were amazing teachers, while others never made it to year two. The only consistent thing I remember is that teachers with 5-10 years experience were consistently good. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/25 "2011-08-28T15:23:29Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > The news that a company was dumb enough to accept your offer would make its stock worthless overnight, and soon people would be out of work, leading to a knock-on effect leaving elderly widows eating dog food. And secretly, that’s exactly what the board would _want_, but when **Shot From Guns** ’s toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring… well, I don’t want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue. ---
**Author:** ![KUjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6a8cbe/32.png) [@KUjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KUjun)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/26 "2011-08-29T02:15:33Z")
or it could be that Meg is a talented teacher that the administration decided that they couldn’t let go and decided to find a position for because she would positively impact the lives of her students? Student teaching/long term sub situations are great opportunities to evaluate potential new teacher hires. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/27 "2011-08-29T02:34:42Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > And secretly, that’s exactly what the board would _want_, but when **Shot From Guns** ’s toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring… well, I don’t want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue. Hm, that’s a good point. If I’ve learned anything from reading this message board, it’s that highly-paid executives are heartless bastards who would love to make an elderly widow eat dog food and then eat the widow. Kudos indeed to **Shot From Guns** for hypothetically foiling their dastardly plans. Plus I bet the toy turns into a robot and everybody loves robots. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/28 "2011-08-29T14:26:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I am willing and able to do the job of any CEO for only $300,000 per year. I don’t even need any deferred compensation! Just a flat yearly salary. > > Leaving aside the issue of the ridiculousness of “willing and able,” it is almost certain that it’s \*not \*a question of how much the OP is \*willing \*to do the job for. Teacher’s salaries are often based on a negotiated scale that takes things like experience into account. How do you know you’re able? > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well, I’m pretty sure I can at least avoid driving a company completely into the ground and/or ruining the entire economy, and people doing that are still being paid millions. So, really, I’m a bargain. There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/29 "2011-08-29T15:57:41Z")
_Fewer_ classroom management skills. That’s not bothering anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/30 "2011-08-29T16:29:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Quite possibly she had an “in” with someone - though it’s usually a no-no to not post vacancies. This was my reaction. From watching **Mamaciders** try to get a job teaching elementary school in a very nice town where the local university pumps out new teachers, vacancies probably _have_ to be posted, even when everyone knows who’s going to get hired for the job and it’s basically already filled. When it’s super competitive like that, your best (or only) bet may be to schmooze principals\* at every place you sub. \*You should have heard her scream when the district implemented a random selection of substitutes policy when a teacher hadn’t specified a sub! Fortunately, she’d made enough contacts at the time to land a good spot the next year, because using that Sub Finder program negated a lot of her networking. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/31 "2011-08-29T16:30:51Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > _Fewer_ classroom management skills. > That’s not bothering anyone else? Not really. Studies have shown that classroom anarchy has little impact on students’ test scores, and can even help improve secondary skills like self-defense and tying tourniquets. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/32 "2011-08-29T16:40:49Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not really. Studies have shown that classroom anarchy has little impact on students’ test scores, and can even help improve secondary skills like self-defense and tying tourniquets. I meant as opposed to the OP’s statement that new teachers have\* less \*classroom management skills. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/33 "2011-08-29T16:44:37Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > I meant as opposed to the OP’s statement that new teachers have\* less \*classroom management skills. Ah. In that case, I made all that up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/34 "2011-08-29T17:00:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy. Sure, but assuming she doesn’t run her company into the ground, her performance will have been adequate and she’ll have come much more cheaply. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/35 "2011-08-29T17:07:04Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > I moved to this city just over 2 years ago, just as the economy was really tanking. With smaller government revenues, school districts either stopped hiring or severely curtailed hiring. So instead of getting a regular teaching job, I’ve been subbing for 2 full years, just starting my 3rd. > > Last year, I long-term subbed for a school, which basically meant I was a regular teacher (made plans, submitted grades, etc.) but only got paid 1/2 as much. While I was there, a neighboring teacher had a student teacher assistant - Meg - who was graduating in May. Nice as she was, Meg was my direct competition for jobs (both math teachers). > > Yesterday, I had a 1-day assignment at that same school. At lunch, the conversation turned to whatever-happened-to-so-and-so topics. When someone asked about Meg, her former “boss” mentioned that she got a position at Watson High School in Southside school district. > > My mind immediately cried, “whatthefuck!” That school district not only let go of hundreds of teachers last year, but their web site (supposedly the only way to get your application in for a job) specifically did not accept applications for full-time teachers. So how the fuck did Meg get in? > > Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She’s cheaper! > > If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who’ve earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career. > > Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which _will_ develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted. Hate to break it to you bud…but yes…that is the way it is. Do a search on my old threads and you will see me talk about this quite a bit I used to teach but left primarily for 2 reasons: Lack of pay and lack of respect (not from students but from society at large). Do a search to hear me talk about this in more detail if you like (and I taught math as well 🙂 ) Actually, you are not quite correct. A teacher peaks in their 3rd year..maybe 4th. A new teacher is inherently risky in that they may suck. Someone teaching 3-5 years is still reasonably cheap and has been vetted…so you should be sitting ok. Once you get beyond 10 you are screwed unless you under-the-table agree to a lower salary (which happens). So…why in the hell would you choose a career in which you start out as a low salary, your salary doesn’t increase much through your career and once you start becoming a veteran you cannot justify even the little bit more you get paid over a junior teacher? GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW! I taught for 6 years and it opened my eyes. Yes, many industries you have to compete with younger, cheaper workers but many times you CAN because they can see your worth over the young whippersnapper…and many times YOU are the person making the hiring decision! GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW! Of course, the economy sucks so you might not be able to…but try…try try try. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/36 "2011-08-29T17:21:32Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > _Fewer_ classroom management skills. > That’s not bothering anyone else? No, the distinction between less and fewer is a ridiculously arbitrary distinction that serves no real purpose. The 10 items or less signs in grocery stores have not ignited mass chaos nor will they and your understanding of the sign is not made less by the use of the word less when you would use fewer. Feel free to utilize such a distinction in your own writing but don’t bother those of us who dispense with such 18th century nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/37 "2011-08-29T18:13:49Z")
Apparently the inner stickler prefers to keep to itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/38 "2011-08-29T18:30:10Z")
In addition, the skills might be individually quantifiable, so even if there were a difference between less and fewer, less might have been _more_ appropriate to begin with. It’s not as if there are a finite number of “classroom skills” that you either have or do not have. Instead, it is probably easier to think of “classroom skills” as a real number, where you might possess _some_ of all of the common skills, but not as much so as more experienced teachers. Using “fewer” slightly alters the meaning. If you say “less” it implies that you have some skill in, for instance, knowledge transfer, classroom management, and interaction with parents, but not as much as more experienced teachers. If you say “fewer” it means that you might be fully qualified in interaction with parents and knowledge transfer, but you can’t manage your classroom _at all_ because you simply _don’t_ have that skill. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/39 "2011-08-29T18:31:11Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > So…why in the hell would you choose a career in which you start out as a low salary, your salary doesn’t increase much through your career and once you start becoming a veteran you cannot justify even the little bit more you get paid over a junior teacher? > > GET THE FUCK OUT! GET THE FUCK OUT NOW! Because, for some people, making money is not their priority in life. In fact, the fact that it was yours indicates that it was a good thing you got out. I don’t know a single teacher who does it for the money. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/40 "2011-08-29T19:34:59Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Please stop, **Diogenes the Cynic**. Oh, sorry, **Shot From Guns**. Same thing, really. I honestly have no idea what kind of equivalence you’re trying to draw between \*\*Dio \*\*and me here. Diagram, please. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > And secretly, that’s exactly what the board would _want_, but when **Shot From Guns** ’s toy idea becomes a worldwide craze and sends the stock price soaring… well, I don’t want to spoil it, but hijinks will ensue. You know… _for kids_. > [@Bricker](#): > > There are plenty of companies that have not been driven into the ground nor ruined the whole economy. Yes, but go back and read what I wrote. The point is that \*even \*the CEOs who do that are paid much, much more than I’m asking. So, \*worst-case \*is my company goes bankrupt and destroys the economy, and \*even then \*I’m a bargain! The point that you guys apparently missed here is, “What the fuck does ‘able’ even mean?” Certainly, the brand spankin’ new teacher has the on-paper qualifications to fill the role. But that doesn’t mean that she would fill it as well as the more-experienced OP, or that his presumably higher salary wouldn’t be justified by an equivalent increase in the quality of teaching over the younger teacher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173.md?page=3)