# Not hiring teachers... bullshit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173 "2011-08-26T13:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/41 "2011-08-29T19:58:20Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > My mind immediately cried, “whatthefuck!” That school district not only let go of hundreds of teachers last year, but their web site (supposedly the only way to get your application in for a job) specifically did not accept applications for full-time teachers. So how the fuck did Meg get in? > > Then I figured it out: she has 0 years experience; I have six. She’s cheaper! > > If this is how this occupation works, dismissing those who’ve earned a higher salary and hiring cheaper teachers, I think I may be abandoning this career. > > Even though new teachers understandably have less classroom management skills (which _will_ develop with experience), having a disproportional number of them is going to significantly reduce the classroom management in schools, and students learning will be impacted. She might not be in for long. According to my teacher friends, there are no pre-tenure teachers left, they’ve all been laid off. This person may have been chosen because she will have more time in which she can get canned easily if the budget gets cut again, a good bet. However I am surprised that they didn’t offer one of the laid off teachers a job. A friend of ours, who is a sub, is hurting because the sub jobs are now going to laid-off teachers. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/42 "2011-08-29T20:17:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The point that you guys apparently missed here is, “What the fuck does ‘able’ even mean?” Certainly, the brand spankin’ new teacher has the on-paper qualifications to fill the role. But that doesn’t mean that she would fill it as well as the more-experienced OP, or that his presumably higher salary wouldn’t be justified by an equivalent increase in the quality of teaching over the younger teacher. Maybe, maybe not. We have the (assumed) judgement of the principal indicating that he isn’t worth the extra money. > [@BigT](#): > > I don’t know a single teacher who does it for the money. I’ve met a lot who do it for the security, time off, and decent money. No, no one is getting rich as a teacher, but typically you get a good salary, a hell of a pension, and a lot of extra time off. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/43 "2011-08-29T20:39:44Z")
A lot of extra time off… during which you work a second and possibly third job. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/44 "2011-08-29T20:43:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > A lot of extra time off… during which you work a second and possibly third job. If you want. Or you go backpacking through Central America. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/45 "2011-08-29T20:53:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you want. Or you go backpacking through Central America. Or you work a second or third job, or you work on your master’s degree and/or go to professional conferences that might be in a fine resort city like Indianapolis. Ain’t nobody going backpacking anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/46 "2011-08-29T20:57:40Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Or you work a second or third job, or you work on your master’s degree and/or go to professional conferences that might be in a fine resort city like Indianapolis. Ain’t nobody going backpacking anywhere. Oh dear. I better see my psychiatrist because the dozen or so teachers I’ve met backpacking and the cousin I have must be figments of my imagination. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/47 "2011-08-29T21:24:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because, for some people, making money is not their priority in life. In fact, the fact that it was yours indicates that it was a good thing you got out. > > I don’t know a single teacher who does it for the money. That’s part of the problem. People that like to actually make some money tend to be good at what they do as well. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/48 "2011-08-30T00:01:47Z")
I don’t teach for the money, but I wouldn’t do it if it paid 20% less. Teacher pay varies enormously by state. There are certainly states I wouldn’t teach in because their salary/cost-of-living ratio is just unacceptable. If you haven’t found a job as a math teacher after five years, I’d really consider moving. Provided you are willing to work in rural or urban schools, there are plenty of jobs out there. If you absolutely cannot move, I do not have any great suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Caveat\_lector\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@Caveat\_lector\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caveat_lector_1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/49 "2011-08-30T01:03:52Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > That’s part of the problem. People that like to actually make some money tend to be good at what they do as well. And I find that people who have a great passion for what they do also tend to be good at what they do. Of course some of them suck, but then so do some people who want money. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/50 "2011-08-30T02:14:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Oh dear. I better see my psychiatrist because the dozen or so teachers I’ve met backpacking and the cousin I have must be figments of my imagination. This actually is a YMMV. Most of the teachers I know aren’t at a point in their careers where they’ve got the time to spend traveling and such; they’re still working on advanced degrees. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/51 "2011-08-30T03:00:49Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > This actually is a YMMV. Most of the teachers I know aren’t at a point in their careers where they’ve got the time to spend traveling and such; they’re still working on advanced degrees. Even if that were true for all teachers, it’s not like that’s some noble sacrifice. Getting an advanced degree, in most cases, bumps their salary up by several thousand dollars a year, or more. Which misses the point entirely. In virtually every other profession if you want to do professional development, you do it on your own time. And typically there’s no built in salary boost for higher degrees. The larger point is, the idea that teachers need to work a 2nd or 3rd job in the summer is ridiculous. Teachers in Illinois start at an average of $37,500, and all teachers combined average $58,600 a year [cite](http://teacherportal.com/salary/Illinois-teacher-salary). Plus a pension, good health insurance, incredible job security, and the aforementioned time off. 99% of teachers don’t have to work a 2nd, let alone 3rd job to get by. Some of them might to get more spending money, but it is hardly a requirement. And yeah, a lot of them do travel. ---
**Author:** ![Tess\_Trueheart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Tess\_Trueheart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tess_Trueheart)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/52 "2011-08-30T03:40:15Z")
And then, there are states like Oklahoma. [cite](http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank20.html) AVERAGE salary? $38,772. I’m told by my professors to expect something in the way of $25,000 to start out… assuming I get hired for a full-time position anywhere. Not a lot of job security either. Recent grads (in various subjects), local public school teachers, and university professors all confirm this. Granted, I’m in a less common subject area, but there is absolutely a large percentage of people who need another source of income. Edited to say: Your link says Illinois is the most teacher-friendly state. All other 49 pay less - some of them a lot less. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/53 "2011-08-30T04:01:06Z")
Teaching in the US is currently a very, very rough position to be in. I was in a similar boat, experience under my belt, certification to teach English, physics, chemistry, biology, Earth science, astronomy and general science to grades 4-12. Excellent references, great classes when I did teach. All I had for two years living in Texas were substitute teaching jobs. The plus side is that it’s fairly easy to get hired to teach, at a good wage, overseas. The minus side is, well, you have to leave your home, your family, and work 12-ish time zones away. It’s a mess, but you do what you have to do. Best of luck finding a job in your field where you live. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/54 "2011-08-30T11:09:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thanks, but I’m not inclined to accept Gladwell’s word for it. It’s not as though he’s an expert in the field. I can’t speak to whatever Gladwell said, but the consensus of most studies is: 1. Experience matters, for a few years. After 3-5, a teacher has generally gotten as good as they’re going to get. 2. Advanced degrees are pretty much worthless. See the cites already, or here’s another. > **[HanushekRivkin.pdf](https://econ.ucsb.edu/~jon/Econ230C/HanushekRivkin.pdf)** > > 302.61 KB ---
**Author:** ![kiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@kiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiz)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/55 "2011-08-30T11:44:32Z")
I have a M.Ed. and left the field three years after graduation because I could not find a FT position anywhere in my region. I’d interviewed in adjoining states where the salaries were maybe half to half-of-a-half of what I could have been making in my own state? That gobsmacked me. I subbed for those three years. I had to work two other PT jobs just to break even. I walked away when I realized that, if I stayed in my area, all I’d be doing was subbing. Three years later I end up in a wholly different field making pretty damn close to what I would’ve been making as a FT teacher :eek: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/56 "2011-08-30T12:59:49Z")
> [@kiz](#): > > I have a M.Ed. and left the field three years after graduation because I could not find a FT position anywhere in my region. Same except technically I didn’t leave the field and (I hope) I’m building resume experience teaching ESL to kids in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/57 "2011-08-30T14:20:33Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In addition, the skills might be individually quantifiable, so even if there were a difference between less and fewer, less might have been _more_ appropriate to begin with. > > It’s not as if there are a finite number of “classroom skills” that you either have or do not have. Instead, it is probably easier to think of “classroom skills” as a real number, where you might possess _some_ of all of the common skills, but not as much so as more experienced teachers. > > Using “fewer” slightly alters the meaning. If you say “less” it implies that you have some skill in, for instance, knowledge transfer, classroom management, and interaction with parents, but not as much as more experienced teachers. If you say “fewer” it means that you might be fully qualified in interaction with parents and knowledge transfer, but you can’t manage your classroom _at all_ because you simply _don’t_ have that skill. That would be less _skill_, as opposed to fewer _skills_. “Less skills” is at best ugly, and taken literally meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/58 "2011-08-30T15:34:41Z")
> [@Caveat\_lector\_1](#): > > And I find that people who have a great passion for what they do also tend to be good at what they do. Of course some of them suck, but then so do some people who want money. Since this works, we should do the same for doctors and lawyers. Only take people with a passion for it. To make sure that they aren’t doing it for the money (which would be BAD) we pay doctors and lawyers $30,000 a year to start and have them max out at…say…$50K after 20 years experience. THAT should really raise up our medical care! ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/59 "2011-08-30T15:46:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t teach for the money, but I wouldn’t do it if it paid 20% less. Teacher pay varies enormously by state. There are certainly states I wouldn’t teach in because their salary/cost-of-living ratio is just unacceptable. > > If you haven’t found a job as a math teacher after five years, I’d really consider moving. Provided you are willing to work in rural or urban schools, there are plenty of jobs out there. If you absolutely cannot move, I do not have any great suggestions. The problem is, Mandy JO, that communities will always be able to find teachers. Just keep lowering standards. Math teacher shortage? Just have people attend a 3 week seminar about Calculus…and then certify them to teach math (true story). So, if you leave teaching, someone will come along to do it. You could lower it to minimum wage and still be able to find people. Teaching is generally considered a joke career in colleges. It is something ‘lower’ students do. It is considered a poor career choice and many of our best and brightest will not even consider it as a career. Bring it up and it isn’t even a debate…they will LAUGH at you if you bring up teaching as a career. A joke. If, as a society, this is the choice we make…fine. But I will not do it. Also, frankly and humbly, I was DAMNED GOOD at it. I was a damned good teacher damn it! I also loved doing it. However, I couldn’t stay. Seriously though, OP. Mandy is right. As a math teacher you should be able to get a job. It still won’t pay worth shit but you should be able to find one. However, you will have to move to a new location. You want grief…try finding a job as an elementary teacher. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173/60 "2011-08-30T16:12:50Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Mandy is right. As a math teacher you should be able to get a job. Not necessarily… even as a “critical needs area” teacher ceritfied to each every science course to kids grades 4-12, and applying to virtually every single science job posted in Texas for two years solid, I got many interviews, one long term subbing gig, and zero job offers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-hiring-teachers-bullshit/594173.md?page=4)