# Not intending to hurt doesn't take away the hurt **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783 "2011-07-04T04:20:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/141 "2011-07-05T20:45:43Z")
Angry wheel chair guy could be a good action figure or Halloween costume. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/142 "2011-07-05T20:45:47Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > One thing that I take particular enjoyment from is when I am approaching a doorway and there is a person coming up to the door behind me, I grab the door and, rather than just scoot myself through the door I will roll back with the door in my hand, holding it open for the person behind me. OMG, the reactions are priceless! I have a wide, nice smile on my face and I say, “Here you go”. MANY times, people simply will NOT be able to accept this. They actually attempt to take the door from me, so they can hold it for me!? I AM THE ONE HOLDING IT FOR YOU! :smack: Just accept the courtesy and go through the door. It’s common courtesy. That’s not the most common reaction though. Usually, people sputter for a moment, not knowing what to say or do, then they say “Well THANK YOU” with an amazed look on their faces. Unless you made some grand gesture with your hand (after you) it’s logistical common sense for the walking person to grab the door and allow you to continue. otherwise the door comes back on you from behind. And unless there is room next to the door for you to wheel behind you’re in the way. So unless people can read your mind they will react like they do with everybody else and grab the door from you and expect you to go first. And frankly, if you’re sitting there with a big wide smile on your face I’m going to think this is some kind of “I’m a big boy” accomplishment for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/143 "2011-07-05T20:45:48Z")
> **[Intent! It’s Fucking Magic!](https://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/)** > > Crossposted to Questioning Transphobia Warning: This post is sarcastic to such a point as you may actually slip in the pools of sarcasm that are dripping off of it. Please walk carefully. The cauti… A helpful SDMB member gave me this link ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/144 "2011-07-05T20:53:52Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m sorry if my reasons for joining SDMB don’t align neatly with yours or with the typical member here but my experiences with my disability and it’s relation to the rest of the world IS what motived me to join in the first place. And anger is not the motivating force behind what compels me to share these stories. It’s the desire to eliminate ignorance and change mind-sets regarding disability and it’s place in society. I will admit, given the extremely personal nature of the subject at hand, that I can at times have a hard time seeing the issue from a completely objective point-of-view. That is what I hope the opinions (some of them at least) here help me achieve. But some of the opinions here also reinforce to me the need to continue to evolve my fight against the oppression (and yes, that is what it is) of those with severe disabilities. I am someone with a well-rounded set of interests, however, and I do engage the board in other topics and subject matters. I am not someone who irrationally dismisses thoughtful discourse on ANY subject, including disability related matters. However, simply because I thoroughly disagree with an opinion doesn’t mean I “angrily dismiss any counterargument” to my own. > [@billfish678](#): > > If XYZ percent of the posters think you are coming off as “angry wheel chair guy”, guess what? For those percentage of posters you ARE coming off as “angry wheel chair guy”. And I noticed you totally ignored my two previous posts. I might be inclined to try to help you out more but it seems to me you want to ignore what you don’t like or argue about it or just hear and agree with the points of view you already agree with. I DID in fact respond to your posts…You just didn’t read it. SURPRISE! But here you go again… I’m sorry if my reasons for joining SDMB don’t align neatly with yours or with the typical member here but my experiences with my disability and it’s relation to the rest of the world IS what motived me to join in the first place. And anger is not the motivating force behind what compels me to share these stories. It’s the desire to eliminate ignorance and change mind-sets regarding disability and it’s place in society. I will admit, given the extremely personal nature of the subject at hand, that I can at times have a hard time seeing the issue from a completely objective point-of-view. That is what I hope the opinions (some of them at least) here help me achieve. But some of the opinions here also reinforce to me the need to continue to evolve my fight against the oppression (and yes, that is what it is) of those with severe disabilities. I am someone with a well-rounded set of interests, however, and I do engage the board in other topics and subject matters. I am not someone who irrationally dismisses thoughtful discourse on ANY subject, including disability related matters. However, simply because I thoroughly disagree with an opinion doesn’t mean I “angrily dismiss any counterargument” to my own. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/145 "2011-07-05T20:54:31Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > [Intent! It’s Fucking Magic! | Genderbitch: An Archive](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1259&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fprivate.php%3Fdo%3Dshowpm%26pmid%3D194208&v=1&libid=1309898634220&out=http%3A%2F%2Fgenderbitch.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2F23%2Fintent-its-fucking-magic%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fprivate.php&title=Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board%20-%20Re%3A%20you%20might%20enjoy%20this...&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fgenderbitch.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2F23%2Fintent-its-fucking-magic%2F) > > A helpful SDMB member gave me this link I’ve always wanted to do this: tl;dr ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/146 "2011-07-05T20:55:40Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I DID in fact respond to your posts…You just didn’t read it. SURPRISE! But here you go again… > I’m sorry if my reasons for joining SDMB don’t align neatly with yours or with the typical member here but my experiences with my disability and it’s relation to the rest of the world IS what motived me to join in the first place. And anger is not the motivating force behind what compels me to share these stories. It’s the desire to eliminate ignorance and change mind-sets regarding disability and it’s place in society. I will admit, given the extremely personal nature of the subject at hand, that I can at times have a hard time seeing the issue from a completely objective point-of-view. That is what I hope the opinions (some of them at least) here help me achieve. But some of the opinions here also reinforce to me the need to continue to evolve my fight against the oppression (and yes, that is what it is) of those with severe disabilities. I am someone with a well-rounded set of interests, however, and I do engage the board in other topics and subject matters. I am not someone who irrationally dismisses thoughtful discourse on ANY subject, including disability related matters. However, simply because I thoroughly disagree with an opinion doesn’t mean I “angrily dismiss any counterargument” to my own. So you would say that your intent should be significant to us as readers? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/147 "2011-07-05T20:56:41Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I’ve always wanted to do this: > tl;dr Huge surprise :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/148 "2011-07-05T20:59:51Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > So you would say that your intent should be significant to us as readers? Why wouldn’t it be? ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/149 "2011-07-05T21:03:38Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Why wouldn’t it be? Maybe for the same reason the intent should be taken into consideration from the person in your OP. (please see thread title) OK, calling you Champ was bad, but the other intent was not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/150 "2011-07-05T21:08:18Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Angry wheel chair guy could be a good action figure or Halloween costume. Or a reason to join a band or work on a shrimp boat. There are career advantages that are being overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/151 "2011-07-05T21:08:38Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Perhaps I’ve missed something, but I’m seeing: > > - an OP in which the grievance is that the person expressed himself in an extremely condescending way; > - a further post in which the grievance is that the person who was ostensibly “helping” completely ignored **jamie** ’s stated wishes (as disabled people’s stated wishes often go ignored) and actually made things more difficult for him. > > Neither of those are issues with being helped. They’re issues with being condescended to. I agree with those specific instances, but the OP indicated that even offers to help upset him. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/152 "2011-07-05T21:38:47Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And I strenuously disagree that woman regularly have their wishes blatantly disregarded in relation to this story and doors being unneccessarily being held open for them. Well, you are strenuously wrong, then. It happens. People also insist on getting me carry-out assistance if I run in for a 20# bag of dog food and don’t bother with a cart, despite the fact that I’ve made it from the dog food aisle to the register with no issues, and despite my explanation that I wrestle 80# dogs on a regular basis so I can certainly handle 20#. And sweet merciful Og, the little old men at the hardware store where I get the grill tank refilled absolutely will NOT tolerate any suggestion that I can put the tank back into the car on my own. I got 3", 50#, and 40 years on most of 'em, but by golly they’re going to lift that for me come hell or high water because I’m a delicate flower of femininity. After a couple years, I just quit wasting my breath arguing with them. Also, avoiding eye contact with someone because OMG they’ll offer to help you?! Really? That seems kind of…issue-y. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/153 "2011-07-05T22:10:31Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Well, you are strenuously wrong, then. It happens. People also insist on getting me carry-out assistance if I run in for a 20# bag of dog food and don’t bother with a cart, despite the fact that I’ve made it from the dog food aisle to the register with no issues, and despite my explanation that I wrestle 80# dogs on a regular basis so I can certainly handle 20#. And sweet merciful Og, the little old men at the hardware store where I get the grill tank refilled absolutely will NOT tolerate any suggestion that I can put the tank back into the car on my own. I got 3", 50#, and 40 years on most of 'em, but by golly they’re going to lift that for me come hell or high water because I’m a delicate flower of femininity. After a couple years, I just quit wasting my breath arguing with them. > > Also, avoiding eye contact with someone because OMG they’ll offer to help you?! Really? That seems kind of…issue-y. At some stores it is just an issue of service. Pet stores in particular offer to carry out dog food bags for everyone. I get asked everytime and I’m 6’3 185 lb male. Same with gas tanks. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/154 "2011-07-05T22:26:37Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Well, you are strenuously wrong, then. It happens. People also insist on getting me carry-out assistance if I run in for a 20# bag of dog food and don’t bother with a cart, despite the fact that I’ve made it from the dog food aisle to the register with no issues, and despite my explanation that I wrestle 80# dogs on a regular basis so I can certainly handle 20#. And sweet merciful Og, the little old men at the hardware store where I get the grill tank refilled absolutely will NOT tolerate any suggestion that I can put the tank back into the car on my own. I got 3", 50#, and 40 years on most of 'em, but by golly they’re going to lift that for me come hell or high water because I’m a delicate flower of femininity. After a couple years, I just quit wasting my breath arguing with them. > > Also, avoiding eye contact with someone because OMG they’ll offer to help you?! Really? That seems kind of…issue-y. Yeah, I’d say that both women _and_ disabled people have to deal with frequent unwanted, obtrusive, and patronizing (as opposed to wanted and actually useful) attempts to help, and for the same reason: because they’re stereotyped as incapable, weak, and helpless. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/155 "2011-07-05T22:27:50Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Okay, you obviously have no capability of putting yourself in my position here. I am simply wishing to be treated as a compentent adult.. This was probably debated to death already, but … you say you want to be treated as a _competent_ adult, but your disability is front and center in most of your posts. If you’re this way in real life, it’s no wonder people are at a loss for how to behave in front of you. I have the feeling that you’re one of those handicapped folks who snottily respond “[I can get it MYSELF!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=601228)” if I hold the door open for them, as I do for _anyone_ coming into a building behind me, but who would also be pissed off if I just ignored you and let the door slam closed before you could reach it. A couple of times, I held a door open for someone in a wheelchair, and qualified it by saying “I do this for anybody behind me”, not wanting to hear the dreaded “I can get that MYSELF!” Many people are going to be uncomfortable when they’re forced into what might seem like a no-win situation like that. Guess what? _Nobody_ treats everybody equally, much as they might try. In our everyday dealings with the general public, we respond differently to different people based on an indescribable number of factors and situations. Attractive female coworker wearing a low-cut blouse? Don’t look at her cleavage. Attractive female in the supermarket wearing a low-cut blouse? Yeah, take a peek. Bunch of kids with skateboards trying to ollie? No problem. Bunch of kids yelling at each other? Probably a scene to avoid. You’re in a wheelchair. You’re in a small and very visible minority. Expect people to notice, just as they do at the morbidly obese people riding mobility scooters at Wal-Mart, women wearing burqas (as opposed to simple hijabs), affectionate same-sex couples holding hands or engaging in some other public display of affection, people with large port-wine stain birthmarks on their faces, thin women with unusually large breasts, furries in costume, local celebrities, Mormon missionaries on bicycles, and people walking large-breed dogs. People tend to notice things that are out of the ordinary, and you’re out of the ordinary. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/156 "2011-07-05T22:32:29Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > This was probably debated to death already, but … you say you want to be treated as a _competent_ adult, but your disability is front and center in most of your posts. What the hell? You italicize “competent” and contrast it with “disability” as though they were mutually exclusive. Why can’t he be a competent adult who, gasp, is disabled? I used to get this a lot on these boards: “For someone who wants to be equal, you sure seem to mention that you’re gay in most of your posts!” (I didn’t mention it in _most_ of my posts, obviously, but it often seems like it when a group whose voices you’re not used to hearing speaks up.) It was a foolish non-sequitur when people said it to me, and it is when they say it to **jamie**. > [@](#): > > I have the feeling that you’re one of those handicapped folks who snottily respond “I can get it MYSELF!” if I hold the door open for them Oh, here you’re just projecting. He repeatedly said (and I repeatedly highlighted that he said) the opposite, that he appreciates courtesy. What he doesn’t appreciate (which again he said) is when people ignore what he says, force their “help” upon him, and in so doing often impede him from doing what he would have been able to do if they hadn’t intervened. ---
**Author:** ![lilbug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b487fb/32.png) [@lilbug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilbug)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/157 "2011-07-05T22:56:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have. But I don’t want usurp Jamie’s thread with the tales. There are people out there who are downright vicious towards the disabled. > > Part of the problem with combating the _social_ obstacles of the disabled, which sometimes are worse than the physical obstacles, are beliefs such as yours - well meaning, but in error - that there isn’t a problem. You don’t mean to, but you’re discounting not only Jamie’s experience, but that of other disabled people, and those close to them such as myself, the spouse of a disabled person. Yes, there ARE people, plenty of them, who do NOT treat the disabled with compassion. Perhaps, but I haven’t seen it. And, from what I gather it sounds as if Jamie’s ‘ready to be offended’ button is always on. I’m not discounting his experience. I’m pointing out we all face rude behavior in our lives, disabled or not, and we do not have to wear it like a badge, trying to police folks’ behavior, there is another way to react to it. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/158 "2011-07-05T22:56:59Z")
Matt mcl is the gay version of Jamie. Can you imagine a gay Jamie in a wheelchair? The world isn’t ready for that yet! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/159 "2011-07-05T23:02:58Z")
I STILL don’t know what we’re supposed to do with the information in the OP. The message I get is, “Don’t be patronizing to the disabled by making comments similar to the hot tub guy’s. And don’t open doors when a person says vehemently that they can handle it.” OK, I guess this is…useful? I don’t know. I believe I knew these things already. But maybe someone has learned. I really hope so. As someone else said, women DO get this treatment all the time, especially in male-dominated arenas and if they are especially feminine. And it’s often frustrating because you have no one to vent to when it happens…no one who won’t say, “Oh, you’re full of shit. He didn’t mean it THAT way!” Uh, sometimes it’s not about the words someone says, but how they say it. You don’t have to be a genius to hear condescending tones in a person’s voice. Just using terms of endearment like “my dear” and “sweetie” is enough to get the evil eye from me, depending on who you are and what you are saying to me. Like I said earlier, **jamie** , if you could broaden your topics so that it’s not all about you and your life difficulties, maybe you can learn how other people handle similar, although varying, experiences. Again, not saying you don’t have a right to be angry or whatever it is you are feeling (maybe you aren’t angry and we’re wrongly attributing this emotion to you…happens to me all the time around here). But people don’t like reruns. Your threads, whether you intend for them to be this way or not, are turning into reruns. ---
**Author:** ![papergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@papergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papergirl)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783/160 "2011-07-05T23:25:54Z")
I think Hot Tub Guy was unthinkinly condescending but probably completely unaware of it. People who feel awkward often end up saying dumb things they regret later. (Certainly my personal experience.) On the other hand, I don’t expect that everyone who offers to help is being a condescending creep. I find myself offering a hand to people all the time in public places, because it seems like a decent thing to do. When I see an older/pregnant/babe-in-arms/whatever person appearing to have trouble picking up a 40# bag of soil at Lowes, I offer to help them. I also hold doors for anyone nearby when I enter or leave a building. I also occasionally offer to help someone (usually older) folks put groceries in their car, or take their carts back for them. This is just what I’ve always done, and I’ve taught my children to do likewise. Not because other people are weak or special or needy…just because I think we’re kind of in this together and why not lend a hand if you can? If you turned down any offer of help, I wouldn’t be offended…that is your right, of course. But while your title addresses one aspect of the issue, I would also offer a by-law: Not every offer of help is made out of respect for your unique situation. Sometimes people are just doing what they believe is required by their own moral code. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-intending-to-hurt-doesnt-take-away-the-hurt/587783.md?page=9)