# Not just stupid. Just not right. (Bitching about bad syntax.) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978 "2008-01-10T12:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/41 "2008-01-12T13:38:04Z")
May I nominate the word “irregardless?” The “ir” and the “less” cancel each other out. Really, “irregardless” should mean the _opposite_ of “regardless,” yet people use them interchangeably quite frequently, and it really grates on my nerves. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/42 "2008-01-12T13:56:56Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I agree with your general complaint against incompetent and careless usage. Using vulgarity to express outrage is no less annoying and no less uneducated. [/QUOTE] Do you truly imagine that I’m either genuinely filled with the emotion of outrage, or insufficiently educated to know an alternate means of expressing myself? I’ve been using that particular ejaculation as a sort of comic motif; I was trying to get a little ironic humor out of pretending that a minor syntactical error evoked the same level of outrage and cursing as the many serious wrongs and evils that are often addressed here in the Pit. Also, I was enjoying the contrast between my clear and lucid complaint against improper use of a grammatical modifier, and the immediately succeeding one-word, vulgar expression of inarticulate rage. **Was.** You’ve ruined it by living up to your name and exceeding the level of pedantry inherent in my thread subject. Now I’m filled with incoherent rage. . . . I feel I want to shout something, anything to express how angry I am. If only there were a single word, perhaps a compound word combining an abhorrent literal meaning with a rich history in popular culture, preferably ending in a hard consonant, that I could shout to the world. Something to express outrage, frustration, exasperation, disgust and a rush of emotion overwhelming any sense of decorum. Someday I’ll find that word, my friend, and then you and I will have words. I mean word. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/43 "2008-01-12T17:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Do you truly imagine that I’m either genuinely filled with the emotion of outrage, or insufficiently educated to know an alternate means of expressing myself? I’ve been using that particular ejaculation as a sort of comic motif; I was trying to get a little ironic humor out of pretending that a minor syntactical error evoked the same level of outrage and cursing as the many serious wrongs and evils that are often addressed here in the Pit. Also, I was enjoying the contrast between my clear and lucid complaint against improper use of a grammatical modifier, and the immediately succeeding one-word, vulgar expression of inarticulate rage.\ [/QUOTE] _I_ got it. 😃 (Well, I got that it was a motif. I don’t think I imbued it with that much symbolism. I mostly just thought it was funny.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/44 "2008-01-12T18:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=lizardling] People who use ‘yet’ when they actually mean ‘but’. “Widget X does this, yet the requirements say that it should do that.” AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH. OG SMASH. [/QUOTE] I don’t get it? That’s a completely standard and normal way of using the word “yet.” Why do you think there’s something wrong with it? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/45 "2008-01-12T18:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Also, don’t say “less than” when you mean “fewer than”. I mean damn. [/QUOTE] Where does this idea (that “less than” should apply only to mass nouns and “fewer than” only to count nouns) come from? It sounds made up to me. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/46 "2008-01-12T22:21:20Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Where does this idea (that “less than” should apply only to mass nouns and “fewer than” only to count nouns) come from? It sounds made up to me. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Well, _all_ language is made up, when you think about it. We just happened to make up a rule that is usually agreed on that you have fewer dollars and less money. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/47 "2008-01-13T00:32:48Z")
Some folks say fewer, but fewer than lesser folk Who’re these lesser folk? --bet you can guess: They are that newer thing, that grammar-skewering Mob, _entre nous_, who would make do with less. (Ironic, ain’t it, that they’re messin’s The result of fewer lessons) Used to be, fewer things occupied my poor head Less stuff concerned me for I had a rule: If I could separate, name and enumerate _Units_ of something, “fewer” was cool. (The irony begins to grow – it’s A less-known rule 'cause fewer know it) Though modern microscopy counts liquid molecules Asking for many more water is bunk Similar problems plague drinkers of rum – is he Fewer sheets to the wind – or merely less drunk? (Is it less beer? Is it fewer? That’s for God, yeast, and the brewer) If I could wave and put good grammar in the mouth Of every speaker, still I would refrain: “Fewer”'s a shibboleth, helping us recognize That man who talks to us owning a brain. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/48 "2008-01-13T19:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] Well, _all_ language is made up, when you think about it. We just happened to make up a rule that is usually agreed on that you have fewer dollars and less money. [/QUOTE] It’s not really usually agreed on (and actually never has been), except in the sense that it is paid a certain amount of lip service in books that have little to do with how people actually speak. That’s why people get to play “grammar gotcha” with it; if it was a real rule of language, people would already be naturally following it. As for **Frylock** ’s question, we’re fortunate enough to know the exact origin of this particular “rule”. I’ve written about this particular bit of silliness a couple times before, so I’ll just link to [that](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9277979&postcount=94). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/49 "2008-01-13T19:51:59Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] if it was a real rule of language, people would already be naturally following it. [/QUOTE] (As an illustrative example, consider how rarely pedants have to correct people to use SVO order in English rather than, say, SOV. Usage guides don’t even bother to mention it; they don’t have to. Sort of bittersweetly ironic, the way the very legitimacy of the rule keeps people from giving it a tenth as much attention as all the contrived flag-throwing opportunities) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/50 "2008-01-13T20:00:06Z")
Okay then, but don’t you dare say “different than” when you mean “different from”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/51 "2008-01-13T20:17:46Z")
You’re not indifferent to such prepositional choices? That situation is a bit different to the situation with “less”/“fewer”. In that situation, there really are various kinds of empirically observable rules going on, but the rules are different from dialect to dialect, and even idiolect to idiolect. For example, the distribution in the U.S. is different than the one in the U.K. But except in the most formal of situations, there’s really no need to spend any conscious effort worrying about it. The way you naturally speak may come off a little weird to someone from elsewhere, but that different people speak differently is just a fact of life. Making a big deal about it or pushing for a standard is like making a big deal over whether there’s a ‘u’ in “color”/“colour” or whether “the government” takes singular or plural verb agreement. ([Cite](http://www.bartleby.com/68/37/1837.html) that all these forms are standard in various speech communities) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/52 "2008-01-13T20:23:14Z")
I was just kidding, **Indi**. Just kidding. Never take pit threads on grammar too seriously. Pitting people for how they speak is like pitting rain for being wet. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/53 "2008-01-13T20:23:58Z")
Yeah, I know. I just wanted to use lots of different “different…” constructions. Though your level of amusement at this may be different onto mine. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/54 "2008-01-14T02:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Okay then, but don’t you dare say “different than” when you mean “different from”. [/QUOTE] Butbut, “dfferent than” is no different than “different from.” 😛 -FrL- On edit: What Indisitinguishable said, but cruder than. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/55 "2008-01-14T13:30:13Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Butbut, “dfferent than” is no different than “different from.” 😛 -FrL- On edit: What Indisitinguishable said, but cruder than. [/QUOTE] Is butbut a word? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/56 "2008-01-14T14:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Do you truly imagine that I’m either genuinely filled with the emotion of outrage, or insufficiently educated to know an alternate means of expressing myself? I’ve been using that particular ejaculation as a sort of comic motif; I was trying to get a little ironic humor out of pretending that a minor syntactical error evoked the same level of outrage and cursing as the many serious wrongs and evils that are often addressed here in the Pit. Also, I was enjoying the contrast between my clear and lucid complaint against improper use of a grammatical modifier, and the immediately succeeding one-word, vulgar expression of inarticulate rage. **Was.** You’ve ruined it by living up to your name and exceeding the level of pedantry inherent in my thread subject. Now I’m filled with incoherent rage. . . . I feel I want to shout something, anything to express how angry I am. If only there were a single word, perhaps a compound word combining an abhorrent literal meaning with a rich history in popular culture, preferably ending in a hard consonant, that I could shout to the world. Something to express outrage, frustration, exasperation, disgust and a rush of emotion overwhelming any sense of decorum. Someday I’ll find that word, my friend, and then you and I will have words. I mean word. Carry on. [/QUOTE] I hadn’t actually noticed that the Pit often addresses serious wrongs and evils..at least not seriously. If you were deliberately juxtaposing a clear and lucid (but deliberately pedantic) complaint against an expression of inarticulate rage as a comic motif, then… I was whooshed. I am embarrassed and I will return to GQs to seek my own kind, having spoiled the party. Please accept my apologies. The term “fuck” and its assorted derivatives are tossed around in the Pit after the manner of pre-adolescents learning a dirty word for the first time and finding a place where they can exercise their newly-found illicit vocabulary. Let me commend your extremely articulate defense of its proper use. I will see myself to the door now. As you were. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/57 "2008-01-14T15:36:26Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] That would not be just. [/QUOTE] Just not is not just not not just, it’s just not not just. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/58 "2008-01-14T17:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Just not is not just not not just, it’s just not not just. [/QUOTE] Or to put it another way, not just is not just not just not, not just is just not just not. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978/59 "2008-01-14T18:28:08Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] No. You didn’t mean what you said. You meant “It’s not just immigration.” Motherfuck! There are probably many better examples, but I’m too goshdarned mad right now to think. I could stamp me little foot. Consider these two statements: [/QUOTE] “He is just not a motherfucker.” “He fucks not just mothers.” Yes. I believe I see your point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-just-stupid-just-not-right-bitching-about-bad-syntax/432978.md?page=2)