# Not knowing whether the 'good guys' will prevail - prefer or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 14, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456 "2015-12-14T22:00:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/1 "2015-12-14T22:00:52Z")
As a book reader or movie viewer, do you think it’s better to know in advance that the “good guys” will prevail over the villains, or genuinely not find out until the end? (I don’t mean spoilers. I mean making the audience familiar with the author’s style, _“He always lets the good guys win,”_ or, _“You can never tell - half of her books end with victory for the villains.”_) As a book author or movie producer, do you think it’s better to let the audience know in advance that the “good guys” will prevail over the villains, or genuinely not find out until the end? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/2 "2015-12-14T22:36:37Z")
I prefer twists. One of my favorite books, was where the protagonist who is chasing down a serial killer gets murdered half-way through the book. Something I wasn’t expecting, nor was anyone else I know that read it. The protagonist’s brother takes up the chase for the remainder of the story. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/3 "2015-12-14T22:44:58Z")
If it’s well-written enough, I don’t think it matters that much. If the writer is doing his or her job, the audience cares more about “what happens next?” than “what happens at the end?” Recent case in point: I watched _The Martian_ when it came out. It had not been spoiled for me in any great detail, but I did know (spoiler ahead) going in that Watney (Matt Damon’s character) made it back to Earth alive. Nonetheless, I was absolutely riveted and white-knuckling my armrests for the entire 2 hours+ of movie. Counter-example: when I read _Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows_, it was the day of release. Zero spoilers. I’m not trying to crap on the Harry Potter books, because I did enjoy them, but when Harry died, I kinda shrugged and thought _yeah, no way in hell Rowling’s going to let him stay dead_. ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/4 "2015-12-14T23:01:33Z")
Part of the reason I like Cthulhu mythos stories is because the good guys don’t always win, I’d love reading a good book where the good guys flat out FAIL. _The Thing_ and maybe _Shane_ are some of the closest movies I can remember right now. The _GI Joe_ movie is so stupid I tried to scrub it from memory. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/5 "2015-12-14T23:25:28Z")
I like for the good guys to win, but I prefer not to know exactly when or how they win. Which means that I’m fine with the win coming in a sequel, for instance, leaving the first book as a (temporary) loss. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/6 "2015-12-14T23:29:47Z")
The classic examples here are\* Apollo 13\* And _Titanic_, both of which made a bunch of money despite the audience knowing exactly how they would end. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/7 "2015-12-14T23:36:15Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The classic examples here are\* Apollo 13\* And _ **Titanic** _, both of which made a bunch of money despite the audience knowing exactly how they would end. But Jack and Rose were fictional, and the story’s main focus. The audience didn’t know what would happen to them. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/8 "2015-12-15T00:45:30Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > If it’s well-written enough, I don’t think it matters that much… This +57. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/9 "2015-12-15T12:22:32Z")
It’s harder to write a story where it isn’t clear who the “good guys” are. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/10 "2015-12-15T12:56:40Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > It had not been spoiled for me in any great detail Not something the rest of us can claim after your post. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/11 "2015-12-15T14:46:31Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > The classic examples here are\* Apollo 13\* And _Titanic_, both of which made a bunch of money despite the audience knowing exactly how they would end. On _Apollo 13_ I completely agree. _Titanic_ not as much, since the real conflicts weren’t about the boat but “will Jack and Rose survive?” and “will Jack get the girl?” ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/12 "2015-12-15T14:47:40Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Not something the rest of us can claim after your post. I figured I was safe saying that about a movie, based on a four-year old bestselling novel, on the tail end of its theatrical run. However, I apologize for the spoiler and have self-reported my post asking a mod to spoiler box the phrase in question. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/13 "2015-12-15T15:11:22Z")
_Inglourious Basterds_ might be unique in having the good guys winning be the surprise ending. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/14 "2015-12-15T15:31:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As a book reader or movie viewer, do you think it’s better to know in advance that the “good guys” will prevail over the villains, or genuinely not find out until the end? > > (I don’t mean spoilers. I mean making the audience familiar with the author’s style, _“He always lets the good guys win,”_ or, _“You can never tell - half of her books end with victory for the villains.”_) I think it depends on what sort of show or movie or book I’m expecting. Like for kinda cheesy action movies, like the Fast and Furious movies, I know that there will be setbacks, and the heroes won’t come out unscathed, but that the villains won’t win in the end. There’s tension in how will it happen, but not about what ultimately will happen. In cases like those, where it’s more of a cheesy comfort movie thing, where I’m not planning on using all of my brainpower anyway, I’m totally okay with knowing in advance that the good guys will prevail. And I would be upset if there was a twist and it turns out the good guys are completely destroyed and the villain wins. But for the more “prestige” type movies or shows, I do want it to be less telegraphed what will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/15 "2015-12-15T15:43:18Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I think it depends on what sort of show or movie or book I’m expecting. Agreed. I read a lot of super-hero comic books, and I enjoy them for the characterization and the world-building, even though I know that the good guys generally are going to win. Movies or TV I might have different expectations. (I always liked seeing the prosecution lose on Law & Order). ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/16 "2015-12-15T16:43:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Movies or TV I might have different expectations. > > (I always liked seeing the prosecution lose on Law & Order). I remember reading an interview with Dick Wolf (creator of the now-enormous franchise) where he said the good guys’ “batting average” was very carefully determined, so as to give viewers a plausible sense of danger, while not making the show so frustrating or depressing that people stopped watching. (Can you imagine watching _SVU_ if the child molesters got away half the time? Yecch.) I want to say that he had the prosecution winning 80%, losing about 20%, with a smattering of total twist endings that couldn’t be cleanly classified one way or the other (victim pulls gun on court steps and shoots the defendant because he realizes she’s probably going to be acquitted, now likely to go to prison himself). ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/17 "2015-12-15T17:16:47Z")
I prefer not knowing. I never read the Lord of the Rings books and kept myself as far from any spoilers as possible throughout the trilogy’s release. I didn’t know wether the ring would be destroyed or not until I was it. The best moment in the series for me was right before the battle at Helm’s deep when it starts raining. Being out-numbered and not knowing if you’ll even make it through the night. That overwhelming sense of dread was fantastic. I don’t know if it would have resonated as well if I knew everything was going to be fine. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/18 "2015-12-15T18:47:32Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > I remember reading an interview with Dick Wolf (creator of the now-enormous franchise) where he said the good guys’ “batting average” was very carefully determined, so as to give viewers a plausible sense of danger, while not making the show so frustrating or depressing that people stopped watching. (Can you imagine watching _SVU_ if the child molesters got away half the time? Yecch.) > > I want to say that he had the prosecution winning 80%, losing about 20%, with a smattering of total twist endings that couldn’t be cleanly classified one way or the other (victim pulls gun on court steps and shoots the defendant because he realizes she’s probably going to be acquitted, now likely to go to prison himself). The very well-named blog Overthinking It provides [this](http://www.overthinkingit.com/2012/11/13/the-law-and-order-database-all-20-seasons/) analysis, complete with charts and graphs, of _Law & Order_’s prosecutorial win-lose-plea bargain-other record over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/19 "2015-12-15T21:14:20Z")
Man, I hate twists in movies more than anything. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t need for everything to be “fluff,” or for all of the main characters to live Happily Ever After. I tend to prefer (at least on TV shows) when the stakes are “real,” and when Anybody Can Die. But, when it’s all said and done with, I need for the good guys to win, even if the casualties are high. But I can’t abide by the bad guys winning, and then fade to black. It can’t be that. _Arlington Road_ is the movie that basically got me to stop watching movies. About all I can handle is seeing how many losses the good guys will have to sustain before they beat the bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456/20 "2015-12-15T23:55:08Z")
Generally, in genre fiction, the default expectation is that the good guys will win; I can’t think of a popular author for whom this isn’t true most of the time. In this case, the tension comes from not knowing exactly how it will happen. For example, I never had any doubt that (Harry Potter spoiler) Voldemort was going to end up losing, but I was still very moved by the deaths of several good characters along the way. In more “serious” fiction, it is more common for stories to end unhappily, and accordingly it would detract more from my enjoyment to know ahead of time what will happen. Also, in non-genre fiction, it is often difficult to distinguish who the good guys are. An example would be JK Rowling’s novel _The Casual Vacancy_, where all the characters are seriously flawed in some way and, although it seems pretty clear the book won’t end on a happy note, you don’t know exactly what will happen. I would have enjoyed that book much less if the ending had been spoiled. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-knowing-whether-the-good-guys-will-prevail-prefer-or-not/740456.md?page=2)