# Not speaking to police period **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 15, 2012, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586 "2012-01-15T09:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/41 "2012-01-17T21:01:52Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I apologize for the personal attack, but I still think it’s obligatory to cooperate with police when they ask you for help. When police officers are out solving murder cases and searching for missing children, eyewitness testimony can mean the difference between success and failure. Are you talking about a moral obligation, a patriotic obligation or a legal obligation? ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/42 "2012-01-17T21:03:11Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > In Ohio, an LEO can ask you for your name, address, and/or date of birth. > > If it is just an _encounter_, and you are not suspected of committing a crime, you can remain silent. > > If you are suspected of _committing a crime_, and you do not reveal your name, address, and/or date of birth when asked, you can be charged under [ORC 2921.29](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29). I live in Ohio also, and that is our version of the “stop and identify” law, and you are correct, and that is the crux of Hiibel, the detainee MUST be “under investigation” to trigger case law afforded in Hiibel. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/43 "2012-01-17T21:07:06Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > This case dates to the PRE applicability to the states of the 5th AM, just as a casual mention, however it is still arguable for the states since the 5th is applicable now. Perhaps if the question dealt with a non federal officer, it may have been different? > > It also deals with a defendant co-operating in the field, then dealing with testimony in the courtroom and 2 trials. > > [Raffel v. United States | 271 U.S. 494 (1926) | Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center](http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/271/494/case.html) > “Post arrest” silence can be used against a person in some jurisdictions, to impeach the defendant, as a comparitive note. Although you can refuse to speak when questioned, if a person does not so call protest his arrest, his silence can be used to incriminate him. I can’t remember the case name now without looking in my notes. Is North Carolina v. Butler the one you were thinking of? > **[North Carolina v. Butler, 441 U.S. 369 (1979)](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/441/369/)** > > North Carolina v. Butler ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/44 "2012-01-17T21:19:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Is North Carolina v. Butler the one you were thinking of? > > [North Carolina v. Butler | 441 U.S. 369 (1979) | Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center](http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/441/369/case.html) No, that was not it, it was Doyle, an Ohio case. I just looked for it. I typed too fast though, it is the reverse, post arrest/miranda silence can NOT be used to impeach a defendant, my error. I knew the case was in my head, should have looked 1st for the exact details. > **[Jefferson DOYLE, Petitioner, v. State of OHIO. Richard WOOD, Petitioner, v....](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/426/610)** ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/45 "2012-01-17T21:38:39Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > And they can obtain that testimony just fine with a lawyer present. If the police care that much and think you’re that essential, they will go ahead and set up a meeting. They’re not going to back down and say, “whoa, a lawyer?! OK, never mind then.” Do people walk around joined at the hip to their lawyers? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/46 "2012-01-17T21:48:20Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Do people walk around joined at the hip to their lawyers? Of course not. So I choose to remain silent, just to be on the safe side. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/47 "2012-01-17T21:49:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So I choose to remain silent, just to be on the safe side. If you’re constitutionally empowered to so, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/48 "2012-01-17T21:54:07Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Do people walk around joined at the hip to their lawyers? Of course not. And where did I make that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/49 "2012-01-17T21:56:24Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Do people walk around joined at the hip to their lawyers? Of course not. I hear they have things called “phones” these days. ---
**Author:** ![expectopatronum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/expectopatronum/32/173_2.png) [@expectopatronum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/expectopatronum)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/50 "2012-01-17T22:30:11Z")
> [@Justinemarie88](#): > > In Harrisburg Pa cops do what they want when they want my husband has a case against them currently for an illegal search amd seizure not marandizing beating him up in a cell and they let him leave but he had to walk five miles in the rain to get home. Lord knows what they would do to a female theyre disgusting peices of trash. i don’t have all that much trouble believing that cops do messed up stuff, but this anecdote just screams “more to the story”. anyways, it’s pretty much been said but it’s worth a repeat: if you’re arrested, the only words out of your mouth should be “i would like an attorney, please”. i’ll say it again. ask for an attorney. the cop is not your buddy, the cop is not your therapist, the cop is not your mommy. their job is to gather evidence against you to build a case. do yourself a favor and don’t help them out. they’ll imply that it will be easier for you if you talk, they’ll make a note that you cooperated. the judge doesn’t give a fuck if you cooperated or not. ask. for. a. lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/51 "2012-01-18T00:33:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > "In stark comparison to the decision made in Miranda v. Arizona, the United States Supreme Court ruled in Raffel v. U.S. that once the suspect begins cooperating with law enforcement and answers questions or consents to a search, he or she gives up the right to remain silent and must continue to cooperate throughout his or her arrest, trial, and judgment. " > > [http://www.mirandarights.org/righttoremainsilent.html](http://www.mirandarights.org/righttoremainsilent.html) [Please read this thread before you believe that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=621600) ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/52 "2012-01-18T02:02:50Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Not always a good idea. They can charge you with obstruction of justice. It also makes you seem like you’ve got something to hide. > [@Theophane](#): > > Yes it is. If they need information from you and you childishly clam cup, it’s obstruction. The fact that you won’t talk to them gives police even more reason for concern. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You have been misinformed. > [@Theophane](#): > > Maybe the law is different where I live. I’m Canadian. > But on general principle I cooperate with police because I have no reason not to. You are also misinformed about Canadian law. [Here](http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Right+Know+Meeting+police+informed+citizen+intimidated/5619908/story.html) is a recent newspaper article by a Canadian criminal defense lawyer which addresses the subject: > [@](#): > > Even the most confident individual can be reduced to a stammering mess in the face of a police officer saying: “I asked you a question, sir.” > > But, in fact, under most circumstances, you don’t have to answer the question. > > As a general rule, you have no obligation to speak to the police or to provide any information whatsoever. Similarly, you have no obligation to identify yourself, either through providing your name or by showing an officer a piece of ID. It’s another story if you are operating a vehicle or are otherwise subject to another statutory regime, such as the Liquor Licence Act or the Trespass to Property Act. > > That said, your right to refuse to answer does not translate into the right to mislead or deceive an officer. Knowingly providing the police with false information can lead to a criminal charge for obstructing police. In the same vein, although one is not obligated to provide an officer with proof of identification under most circumstances, it can be a criminal offence (personation) to lie about your identity. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/53 "2012-01-18T05:38:39Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > [Please read this thread before you believe that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=621600) You are correct on the revoking part, I miss read that, I was under the impression that you could not revoke during detainment unless it was in a home etc. I thought that applied only under interrogation and or after arrest, the effect is similar though as any statement follows the case no matter what and it would probably be your own incriminating statements which would be the probable cause. Cops go fishing a lot. You may want to look at “Implied Waiver” of Miranda Rights though, if it is reasonable to believe that you understand your rights after having them explained things may be admissible. As I said, my main personal experience was on a grand jury, we didn’t need to worry about pesky things like the 4th, 5th or exclusionary rules…or defense lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/54 "2012-01-18T14:07:51Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If a policde officer explains that they need your help regarding an ongoing murder investigation, shouldn’t you render whatever assistance you can in good faith? How is it patriotic (for an American) to be childish and pigheaded with authority figures? > > Americans who claim to be more patriotic than anyone else are the most anarchistic. What’s up with this? 😕 It may be the case that there was never a time when the main philosophy of law enforecement was to protect and serve. This may just be a myth and a wierd sense of nostalgia that I have for a time when things seemed kinder. It is certainly the case now that law enforcement has become pretty militarized and that they seem a lot more concerned with keeping the population in line than they do with protecting us. I guess that what I am saying is that the police have absolutly no business interacting with me. I am, after all, a law abiding citizen. I say this in the same spirit as the agument that if I have nothing to hide I have nothing to be afraid of. Look, the bottom line is that the cops are not on our side. They do not see us as people, but rather as suspects, potential suspects or “persons of interest”. The smart thing to do if an officer of the law decides to interact with you is to assume that this is a potential threat to your freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/55 "2012-01-18T14:12:38Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > It may be the case that there was never a time when the main philosophy of law enforecement was to protect and serve. This may just be a myth and a wierd sense of nostalgia that I have for a time when things seemed kinder. > > It is certainly the case now that law enforcement has become pretty militarized and that they seem a lot more concerned with keeping the population in line than they do with protecting us. > > I guess that what I am saying is that the police have absolutly no business interacting with me. I am, after all, a law abiding citizen. I say this in the same spirit as the agument that if I have nothing to hide I have nothing to be afraid of. > > Look, the bottom line is that the cops are not on our side. They do not see us as people, but rather as suspects, potential suspects or “persons of interest”. The smart thing to do if an officer of the law decides to interact with you is to assume that this is a potential threat to your freedom. They’ll be “on your side” when you need them. Or are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/56 "2012-01-18T15:26:51Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > They’ll be “on your side” when you need them. Maybe, maybe not. If you’re Kevin Fox, the father of a little girl killed in Illinois a few years back, police will [overlook evidence pointing to a random intruder](http://archive.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/records-suspect-in-riley-fox-slaying-left-shoes-behind.html) and instead [browbeat the dad into confessing](http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/July-2006/The-Nightmare/) just so he could get out of custody. He was led to believe that his entire family had been told what “really” happened and had disowned him and gotten lawyers (lies by the police), and this desperate dad just wanted to talk to his family. Exhausted and beaten-down after being screamed at and shown photos of his daughter, sexually assaulted and killed, he just wanted out. And he signed a confession, then recanted right after, but was kept for 8 months in jail until DNA testing finally came back and excluded him. He was innocent. A grieving father who just wanted to help the police. What harm could have come from him helping? Plenty. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/57 "2012-01-18T16:01:37Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > They’ll be “on your side” when you need them. Or are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types? I am not really sure what you mean here. What is a “Sovereign Citizen” type, and why do you seem to hold them in contempt? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/58 "2012-01-18T20:47:15Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > They’ll be “on your side” when you need them. Or are you one of those Sovereign Citizen types? The refusal to voluntarily incriminate ones self, in a way consistent with the advice of LEO and almost any attorney worth their salt, is not indicative of a disdain for law enforcement. I would argue it is the most prudent action of a well informed citizenry. Your idea that the only way to be a good citizen is by discarding our rights is the one that is abhorrent in a free society. Rights are not there for the convenience of the state. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/59 "2012-01-18T21:55:50Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Maybe the law is different where I live. I’m Canadian. > > But on general principle I cooperate with police because I have no reason not to. Enough Canadians have been convicted of crimes they haven’t committed that I would suggest you be very careful in what you’re willing to tell a police officer. ESPECIALLY if the police officer has even a scent of suspicion about you (e.g. he isn’t interviewing you as a witness to someone unrelated to you, like you saw a car addicent) you shouldn’t say anything beyond who you are without the help of an attorney. I certainly admire police officers and the job they do and have no problem with them. All interactions I’ve had with the police were quite positive. But I won’t tell them a damned thing about me. They can have my name, and if it’sd a traffic stop, my driving documents. That’s just me protecting myself and my family. Its good legal smarts, just like I wouldn’t sign a contract without reading it all. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586/60 "2012-01-18T22:06:51Z")
I have a friend who is a US Marshall. I still talk to him but I just avoid admitting to any federal crimes while he’s around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-speaking-to-police-period/609586.md?page=4)