# Not THE e. coli? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2000, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797 "2000-01-29T20:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2000, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/21 "2000-02-01T08:23:00Z")
??? B\_Line 12 - Can I point out to you where I said: > [@](#): > > “Garden variety” E. coli is not a single strain; it is any of many starins which do not have special mutations that allows them to secrete toxins, invade the intestinal mucosa, cause hemolytic-uremic syndrome, or otherwise wreak havoc. Ok, so I typo’d strains…otherwise my post is in agreement with your statement about many strains of _E. coli_ being harmless in humans’ intestinal tracts. However, no one ever brought up the _Acidophilus_ cultures except you. I did state that Augmentin & other antibiotics kill _E. coli_, and other “helpful” bacteria. Loss of ALL of these leads to overgrowth of resistant bacteria (_Clostridium dificile_ among others) & yeast in the intestines, which results in diarrhea in many individuals. _Lactobacillus_ or other cultures may be beneficial in helping to restore balanced growth of many kinds of organisms, including _E. coli_, in the gut, even though they don’t directly replace the _E.coli_ themselves. By the way, it customary when arguing against something already posted to provide a cite, rather than to curse & scream at people to look it up themselves. So, here is one link: [http://www.mayohealth.org/mayo/9908/htm/diar.htm](http://www.mayohealth.org/mayo/9908/htm/diar.htm) And, here are 2 abstracts found on MEDline cross-searching diarrhea & antibiotics: > [@](#): > > TITLE: Epidemiology, risk factors and treatments for antibiotic-associated diarrhea. > AUTHORS: McFarland LV > AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Medicinal Chemistry, School of Pharmacy, University of Washington and Biocodex, Inc., Seattle, Wash., USA. > SOURCE: Dig Dis 1998 Sep-Oct;16(5):292-307 > CITATION IDS: PMID: 9892789 UI: 99110746 > ABSTRACT: Antibiotic-associated diarrhea (AAD) is a common complication of antibiotics and recent findings on the epidemiology, etiologies and treatment strategies are reviewed. Rates of AAD vary from 5 to 39% depending upon the specific type of antibiotic. The severity of AAD may include uncomplicated diarrhea, colitis or pseudomembranous colitis. The pathogenesis of AAD may be mediated through the disruption of the normal flora and overgrowth of pathogens or through metabolic imbalances. The impact of AAD is reflected by increased hospital stays, higher medical costs and increased rates of comorbidity. The key to decreasing these consequences is prompt diagnosis followed by effective treatment and institution of control measures. > [@](#): > > TITLE: Lactobacillus GG in the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children [see comments] > AUTHORS: Vanderhoof JA; Whitney DB; Antonson DL; Hanner TL; Lupo JV; Young RJ > AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Department of Pediatrics, University of Nebraska, Omaha, USA. > SOURCE: J Pediatr 1999 Nov;135(5):564-8 > CITATION IDS: PMID: 10547243 UI: 20015035 > COMMENT: Comment in: J Pediatr 1999 Nov;135(5):535-7 > ABSTRACT: OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to determine the efficacy of Lactobacillus casei sps. rhamnosus (Lactobacillus GG) (LGG) in reducing the incidence of antibiotic-associated diarrhea when coadministered with an oral antibiotic in children with acute infectious disorders. STUDY DESIGN: Two hundred two children between 6 months and 10 years of age were enrolled; 188 completed all phases of the protocol. LGG, 1 x 10(10) - 2 x 10(10) colony forming units per day, or comparable placebo was administered in a double-blind randomized trial to children receiving oral antibiotic therapy in an outpatient setting. The primary caregiver was questioned every 3 days regarding the incidence of gastrointestinal symptoms, predominantly stool frequency and consistency, through telephone contact by blinded investigators. RESULTS: Twenty-five placebo-treated but only 7 LGG-treated patients had diarrhea as defined by liquid stools numbering 2 or greater per day. Lactobacillus GG overall significantly reduced stool frequency and increased stool consistency during antibiotic therapy by the tenth day compared with the placebo group. CONCLUSION: Lactobacillus GG reduces the incidence of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children treated with oral antibiotics for common childhood infections. While these do not specifically mention all of the different bacterial strains killed by Augmentin, or other antibiotics, here’s an excerpt from another abstract confirming that a majority of _E. coli_ strains are susceptiple to Augmentin(amoxicillin/clavulonic acid): > [@](#): > > Two groups of Escherichia coli (lactose-positive and lactose-negative strains) were assayed to evaluate the resistance to betalactam antibiotics using disk diffusion technique. 57.66% lactose-positive and 80.82% lactose-negative strains showed the resistance to ampicillin. **In lactose-positive E. coli strains 5.00% and in lactose-negative 18.64% strains respectively were resistant to amoxicillin/clavulanic acid.** * * * Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![frolix8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@frolix8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frolix8)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2000, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/22 "2000-02-01T14:01:00Z")
Since this thread is still active, no one has brought up that E. Coli are going to be in bath water whether the baby poops or not. There won’t be as many of them, but there are E. Coli all around the “naughty bits”. This was covered fairly well in the “do I need to wash my hands after I pee” column. Since E. Coli will always be present it makes sense to clean the tub after every use, not just after an “accident”. I’ve noticed that people who are germ sensitive will ignore many sources of germs and concentrate their fear and aversion on a few obvious sources. That’s probably a good thing, otherwise they would be living in plastic bubbles. ---
**Author:** ![frolix8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@frolix8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frolix8)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2000, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/23 "2000-02-01T16:36:00Z")
Here’s a link to a new study that seems appropriate. [http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/31/disinfectants.enn/index.html](http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/31/disinfectants.enn/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2000, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/24 "2000-02-02T17:01:00Z")
Now just a dang minute! We had an e. coli outbreak in Atlanta a while back which was ultimately traced to a kid at a water park who apparently leaked a little poopage while he was in the water, and thus infected a bunch of other kids. Now if the bacteria in human intestines is **not** harmful, then what gives? How did this outbreak occur? 😕 * * * “Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2000, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/25 "2000-02-02T17:57:00Z")
## I can’t imagine that the above scenario is accurate; else public pools would be the most dangerous invention in the history of mankind. If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes. –Russell Hoban in _Turtle\_Diary_ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2000, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/26 "2000-02-02T19:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by spoke-: > Now just a dang minute! We had an e. coli outbreak in Atlanta a while back which was ultimately traced to a kid at a water park who apparently leaked a little poopage while he was in the water, and thus infected a bunch of other kids. > > Now if the bacteria in human intestines is **not** harmful, then what gives? How did this outbreak occur? 😕 Excellent question, spoke. IIRC, the kid this was traced to was allowed to play in the water park, despite being ill himself. We humans always have bacteria living in our GI tract; these are beneficial to us. Sometimes, we get other strains of bacteria growing in our intestines that cause illness through any of the various mechanisms listed above. If a person with illness-causing (pathogenic) bacteria growing in his intestines poops in the water, millions of bacteria, both harmless & pathogenic will be released into the water. Anyone who ingests any of this water is at risk for getting sick. The key difference here is that in the OP’s scenario, the kid was healthy. While the accident would have caused lots of bacteria to be released into the water, they would be of the harmless variety. In the Atlanta water park situation, the kid was ill & released pathogenic bacteria into water. * * * Sue from El Paso Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/27 "2000-02-02T20:33:00Z")
Thanks for the clarification, Majormd. Yes, lissener, the scenario is accurate. As I understand it, the water park in question **allegedly** (always use that word to avoid defamation lawsuits ;)) allowed the chlorine level at the pool in question to drop to an unsafe level. * * * “Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/28 "2000-02-04T17:12:00Z")
Accurate enough in details, perhaps, as far as it goes, but not in its implications: the _E. coli_that was in the kid’s poop was not _from_the kid’s poop. To imply that this scenario suggests that kids’ poop is dangerous in normal circumstances is like suggesting that runny noses cause colds. The infectious agent, whether it’s a cold virus or bovine _E. coli,_ comes from without, not within. * * * If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes. –Russell Hoban in _Turtle\_Diary_ ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/29 "2000-02-04T17:41:00Z")
Try again: Accurate enough in details, perhaps, as far as it goes, but not in its implications: the _E. coli_that was in the kid’s poop was not _from_the kid’s poop. To imply that this scenario suggests that kids’ poop is dangerous in normal circumstances is like suggesting that runny noses cause colds. The infectious agent, whether it’s a cold virus or bovine \* E. coli,\* comes from without, not within. \*\* [/QUOTE] * * * If I were to say that today’s tomatoes are an index of the decline of Western man I should be thought a crank but nations do not, I think, ascend on such tomatoes. –Russell Hoban in _Turtle\_Diary_ ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2000, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797/30 "2000-02-04T19:51:00Z")
Geez, **lissener** , isn’t this thread anal enough without that last post? 😉 I would have hoped that the little confused smiley at the end of my previous post would have been a fair indicator to those reading it that I had some confusion on the mechanism of transmission. Thankfully, **Majormd** came along to clear up the confusion. I wasn’t “implying” anything, I was relating some facts (accurately, I might add) and asking for an explanation. _Sheesh!_ * * * “Every time you think, you weaken the nation!” --M. Howard (addressing his brother, C. Howard). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/not-the-e-coli/6797.md?page=1)