Not Voting : A Right or Irresponsible

And from that modest philosophy grows pretty much the rest of the argument. Of course, that attitude doesn’t even get us to the hunter/gatherer stage of human social development, and I wouldn’t recommend it as a tool for personal growth either, but you’re fortunate to have been born at a time when much of the work of civilization-building has been done. A big enough dog can support a lot of fleas. I don’t think even the other non-voting enthusiasts in this thread reject the social contract entirely – at least I hope they don’t.

Noctolator, you were one of those who first pointed out the multitude of reasons for not voting. If these people once got to the polls, why would they all vote no preference? Some might , I suppose, but most people who don’t vote are probably not doing so out of a conviction that non-participation is a powerful political statement. I still think the mere fact that normally non-voting blocs were going to show up this year would have a very healthy effect on their representation in government. Those in power would have to take their needs into account, and candidates would arise to appeal to them, and both these effects would tend to reduce apathy and increase political awareness. If every sub-group, economic or otherwise, had equal rates of participation, regardless of what the rate was, this wouldn’t work, but that’s not the case. Depending on the demographic measured, rates range from almost 80% to less than 20%.

I’m still not persuaded by the bogey of compelled speech. It’s, at worst, speech you communicate privately, among millions of others, that can’t be ever attributed to you. Ever have to fill out a form? Been required to give any information about yourself at all? Maybe the penalty for not doing so wasn’t jail, but it was at least the foregoing of some option, and therefore a curtailing of your freedom to do whatever you want. And there might have been, on some of these forms, a notification that you couldn’t write just whatever you wanted, you had to tell the truth – or risk a more tangible penalty. As far as the courtroom analogy goes, a criminal defendant must plead. And this is not and never has been considered a violation of the First Amendment. Neither is the speech demanded of witnesses, who have committed no crime at all but are required to show up at a certain place, at a certain time, to speak their testimony, and can be punished if they don’t. This is done to protect the interests of the state. Voting is also in the interest of a democratic state. The exceptions to compelled speech you adduce merely show how subject to it most of us are, if you want to get picky about it, and how insignificant a freely-cast vote, to which there can never be any penalty attached, is by comparison. Anyhow, this is at best a distraction. The issue doesn’t come into play at all unless the government punishes non-voters, which nobody wants.

I can understand the distaste for being made to choose between unappealing alternatives – say steak or pork if you’re a vegetarian – and the anger arising from the prospect that, having been made to choose, your grudging pick will be trumpeted as an endorsement of something you personally consider vile. If you stop showing up for dinner, though, the menu won’t ever get any better. No would-be cook will ever get the idea that he can get the gig by offering some vegetables too, and no one will take you seriously if you decide to take a run at the job. Which is a shame, because your getting some of what you want might be good for everybody at the table, not limited to the other vegetarians who haven’t given up. And, as I extricate myself from the cooling scraps of an overcooked metaphor, that’s what I mean about a social obligation to vote.

Taber, I get it, but freely choosing to exercise the same degree of elective rights as a 14th-century Lithuanian serf is the freedom of self-indulgence, not political liberty. Similar freedoms include the right to let your lawn grow and the right to pick your nose on the crosstown bus.

I’ll concede there are plenty of places I’d hardly call “free” where voter turnout approaches (and sometimes exceeds) 100%. But I don’t blame the electorate for their situation, and anyway we have no such excuse.

Basically, I equate refraining from voting with putting Tinkertoys in your nose: the right to do so without government interference – paramount. Actually doing so – pretty stupid.

Except that voting is not part of the social contract and if Erek can live his life free of obligation to you [or anyone] then he is blessed with an enlightened existence and you may find life is easier if you were to emulate him, rather than to worry about what others demand of you all the time. It appears to me that Erek is doing a better job taking advantage of the civilization-building that has gone on whereas you present one of the best ideas of the 16th century.

I still disagree with this. It is not only one but it is a pair of blanket assertions.

First: That you think this is the case really doesn’t sway anyone though you say it over and over. You are dealing with a group that by its [in]action has already indicated a lack of preference. To take your vegetarian analogy, they are not going to eat either steak or pork without surrendering their personal choice, their values and their ideals. Is that what you want? Is the result really going to be all that good?

Second: Even if I were to admit that they’d change their minds and pick from Column A or Column B, which I don’t, part 2 of your burden would be to show that this would be better in any way. In this, you claim it would force politicians to change their tune and I gave you at least one very good reason [as well as a cite to the compelling written word of a bona fide, card carrying political economist whom I can vouch for personally] as to why this is not bloody likely. Did you read what Maeglin wrote?

If you are not persuaded by the bogey of compelled speech let’s go ahead and say that the Supreme Court of the United States is. The information I give about myself is through the course of education, getting a state ID/driver’s license, filing my taxes and other things which through various contortions are in fact compulsory according to the law of the land and my honest and truthful participation is part of a narrowly defined overriding state interest found under the test of “Strict Scrutiny.” That things are made compulsory by government does not mean this automatically extends to voting. There is no precedent for this and it is certainly not in the overriding state interest for everyone everywhere to vote. You have not even argued that it is.

Your analogy falls down because you set it up as if this is the only way to get “dinner,” and that it’s in our interest to make sure a vegetarian can get a plate at this one metaphorical restaurant you set up. And it assumes again the result I challenge up at the top of this post.

If you don’t blame the electorate for their situation there, how do you get off blaming one for the situation here?

I had tinkertoys in my house growing up. What ever do you mean? Were you making some kind of building analogy? Because if so, it’s a weak one. America gets the politicians it deserves and you have not yet established we’d deserve anything better if more people voted.

Oh, puh-leeze. What they would do is become even more crassly demagogic then they are already, because they’ll be competing for the profoundly apathetic and ignorant members of the Teeming Millions who vote only because they’re required to do so. (The people who don’t vote on principle would probably refuse anyway.)

Er, that really isn’t an argument you want to invoke, unless you want me to bore the class by droning off a list of dictatorships in which voting (for the dictator, of course) was compulsory…

  1. Social Contracts.

At least you agree there is such a thing. Whether voting is part of it is what we’re arguing about. If Erek believes he has no obligations to other members of society, that makes him dangerous, not admirable.

  1. Voter participation and preferences.

First, a word about evidence. Your cite is another thread started an a pseudonymous message board – this one. Who and what are you citing? I did read what Maeglin wrote. Among other things, he said people vote for a lot of different kinds of reasons, from personal identification to economic self-interest. Sounds good to me. But nothing he wrote or cited seemed to me to say that if traditionally non-voting groups began to vote in significant numbers, those groups wouldn’t be better off. My unsupported opinion is that in a representative democracy, that’s good.

Ever see an opinion poll – one of those things where they randomly call people up and ask them questions? Notice how “don’t know/no opinion” is one of the choices? Ever see a poll where that option was taken by *half * the respondants? I haven’t: I’d be hard-pressed to come up with one where it was over 10%. I’m forced to conclude that even non-voters have preferences. As luck would have it, the Census report I linked to earlier (go to pg. 10) shows that “disinterest” and “disliked all candidates” combined were given as reasons by less than 20% of non-voters. Just as a glance at history, did government representation for women improve or decline after they began to vote? The story for black Americans is more problematic, because they were for so long thwarted and discouraged for years after they officially had the franchise, but can’t you see the beginnings of improvement over the time when they could not vote at all? Now, a hypothesis: If, for example, the percentage of voting Hispanic Americans grew from 27% to, say, 75%, do you really not think you’d see a difference in their representation at all levels of government? Even out of sheer opportunism, their concerns would become more important, and more candidates would come from within the demographic. And that’s good.

  1. Sorry you don’t like the restaurant analogy, but where do you go for political representation, if not politics?

  2. Compelled Speech.

If you tell me a Supreme Court Justice you can personally vouch for told you encouraging voter participation is a violation of the First Amendment, or that any of the other examples noted are, I might cry. Just once more: “everyone should vote” is not the same as “everyone should be forced to vote.” And even if it were, voting, when it’s anonymous and untraceable and you have mutually exclusive choices including “none of the above,” is a much weaker and more trivial example of compelled speech that most of the other examples. But having swallowed the camel, you still strain at a nonexistent gnat.

  1. Sham elections under dictatorships.

Because, as I tried to make clear, we don’t live in such a repressive dictatorship and have no such excuse.

  1. Tinkertoys.

How’s your breathing? Just kidding.

I … er, no.

[=Noctolator]Because if so, it’s a weak one. America gets the politicians it deserves and you have not yet established we’d deserve anything better if more people voted.
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Actually, I wouldn’t mind if we got better than we deserved, and that’s happened once or twice. In the meantime, I’ll settle for more accountable to more of the people, especially those who don’t now vote.

Erek is not all that dangerous. Where did you get off assuming I didn’t believe in there being a social contract? You’re the one who used the word “Freedom,” properly capitalizing it and placing it within quotations, which I bring up again because every time you talked about what “Freedom” means, you apparently were alluding to a social contract. That’s not what “Freedom” means, of course. I still don’t know what’s in your social contract. Mine doesn’t include voting. This is why you have been confusing everyone into thinking people have some obligation to vote that is connected to their status as a Free Citizen of the Republic. I believe no such obligation exists, and most of the people out here agree. But you are arguing that it would be really nice if more people just voted. So you are arguing for nothing much at all. All of us vote, so it’s not that we have to be convinced of the utility of voting, but you are invoking all kinds of social contract stuff inarticulately.

By the way, it doesn’t exist as a feature of our social contract if it isn’t compelled, it’s just a phant’sy.

Erek defines his obligations based on the proximity of his social bond to you, and does not extend it to everyone in society based on written philosophy or even law because he treats it as a personal decision. Even so, he remains within the normative concerns of all those who are around him. He is not really all that dangerous. He even lived without a govt-issued ID for a long time, Erek did; because of the strength of his social bonds he did fine. I have known him for a decade.

I have said the same thing about this several times. Voting is by no means the only mode of expression to solicit representation. Overall, it is the least directly influential unless you have an incredible one-issue candidate, given why the reasons for voting and even not voting are so diverse. To be influential, make a call. Write a letter. Send an email. Commend on a webpage. Stop by an office. Most of the people doing real work in government are not elected. Oh yeah, one more.

Donate money.

That right there might be why the poor rarely get a credible champion. There must be serious money behind any issue for it to get airtime and be necessary to credibility. As it happens, poverty is incredibly hard to understand and measure and so is applying policy correctly to end the system. Politics as it stands isn’t getting it done now. Perhaps the high percentage of voters who said they are too busy are referring to what would be a hardship of lost wages just to vote in a system that isnt getting it done for their community. The poor community has more to do with non-elected welfare and public service employees than elected officials who rarely venture in their neighborhoods.

Okay. I never said anything against voter participation. I say it’s not part of any social contract. You can see in reality that it isn’t.

People seem to have plenty of good excuses not to vote. If it were an obligation you wouldn’t have all those good reasons on page 10 of the census report.

QUOTE=The King of Soup]Actually, I wouldn’t mind if we got better than we deserved, and that’s happened once or twice. In the meantime, I’ll settle for more accountable to more of the people, especially those who don’t now vote.
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I don’t believe they’d get real and lasting quality of representation in this country.

Few people voting favors extremists (people really dedicaced to a political cause do vote and get over-represented).

Most people voting favors demagogues (people not really understanding the issue at hand cast some random vote based on irrelevant points)
Your pick.
Personnaly, I’m against a compulsory vote, like in Belgium or Australia, if only because some people might be opposed to the principle of it (say, they’re royalist or anarchist)

Let me check what I wrote. Here it is: I said, “At least you agree there is such a thing.” That gives you full credit for believing in there being a social contract. On scant evidence, certainly, but I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Now this debate is not about friend mswas/Erek, (and I’ll stipulate that he’s a fine person) but a small part of it was about his assertion that he had no obligations to his fellow citizens. He might or might not agree with your refinements and codicils to that position, but anyone who really did believe they had no obligations to their fellow citizens would be at best no help at all when it came to building/maintaining/protecting a society. Also, I don’t want to get too far off-topic, or too personal, but take a close look at what you had to say about him:

Sort of moderately reassuring, I guess.

Um … good?

And you’ve known him for ten years? What kind of character reference would you give someone you didn’t like?

Loaded language aside, that’s exactly right. I believe that voting, in a representative democracy, is one of those obligations, like bathing and not blasting your stereo at 3 a.m. even if there’s no noise clause in your lease, that exists even if it is not and should not be enforced at the point of a soldier’s gun or a bureaucrat’s pen. I believe that because – well, see above. It’s beneficial to the health of our society as a whole.

Gotcha. There’s no need to vote. Plus, majority rules.

This is your prescription for people who find voting to be too burdensome?

You know, I think I’ll stop now. A couple of the more pernicious bad arguments about voter non-participation seem to have fallen by the wayside, and that’s good. But I’m frankly afraid to engage a wisdom powerful and subtle enough to fit that last quote into a coherent worldview. I’ll let someone else have the last word.

The King of Soup See the thing is here, you have a sense of entitlement that I disagree with. To me contracts are something to be entered into by individuals having weighed the decision carefully. I have no obligation to you by the mere fact that you exist within the same loosely based confederation of states that we call America. If I choose to enter into a social contract that benefits you, you should be grateful, because I DO NOT have to do so. Of course, if I choose not to then no one is obligated to me either, and all sorts of forces I have chosen not to have an impact on may impact me. That’s the fundamental difference between a free society and a tyrannical one, it’s the question of compulsion. To me a free society is far stronger than a compelled one, because everyone is working with both their self-interest and the interests of society equally in mind. The problems in America I believe are all rooted in an effort to control people’s behavior that runs in strict contradiction with the values that we are taught.

Oh and by the way, when I had no ID, I still voted. ;p

Erek