# "Nothing has changed about gold except the price" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 8, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623 "2024-06-08T03:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/21 "2024-06-08T15:06:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The idea as I see it often discussed really is not about something on the scale of true general system collapse, Before Covid, I used to joke that in endtimes instead of gold and silver I’d rather have bandages, bourbon and toilet paper. Apparently that wasn’t a joke. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > but more along the lines of a Zimbabwe style hyperinflation and/or run-of-the-mill civil war where _somewhere_ after enough steps there is someone who will carry out trade in the old ways. Agreed. Under the right circumstances, gold and silver are islands of stability amongst the near worthlessness of fiat currency. It is interesting that amid their currency issues, Turkiye banned crypto for payments. However given the long history with gold as money in that country dating back to even the Ottomans, they did not Roosevelt the economy and ban gold as a money equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/22 "2024-06-08T15:42:27Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Zombie apocalypse happened, Joe needs bullets. Sam needs food. Sue has gold. She buys the bullets. Trades Joe the bullets for food. Takes her cut of the food. Sells Sam the food for more gold and finds John has medicine. Buys the medicine from John. Takes her cut of the medicine and sells the rest to whoever has the most gold. Before you know it, Sue is the richest one there. Taking her cuts, asking for more and more gold for what she’s able to buy. All of this is dependent on the unlikely circumstances of somebody in the midst of a battle for survival deciding that they will trade bullets, food, and medicine for gold. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/23 "2024-06-08T15:42:55Z")
The thing is, even if the United States collapses somehow, the U.S. is just one country. The rest of the world will probably be fine, as will its various currencies. Americans will use euros and yens before they use gold. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/24 "2024-06-08T15:51:52Z")
Gold is a hedge against currency collapse. That’s about it. There are other investments that are better hedges against “high” (but not catastrophic) inflation. If your local currency becomes worthless, there is a chance that gold will allow you to travel to a better place and get your feet under you there before you run out of it. It may also allow you to survive until conditions improve in your current location, if you can keep it’s presence enough of a secret that you aren’t robbed or killed for it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/25 "2024-06-08T15:52:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The thing is, even if the United States collapses somehow, the U.S. is just one country. Or 51 countries - the Federal jurisdiction and 50 sovereign states which is why some states use goldbacks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/26 "2024-06-08T15:54:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Or 51 countries - the Federal jurisdiction and 50 sovereign states which is why some states use goldbacks. Whatever. The point is, you’re not the whole world. If you collapse you’ll just be another failed state (or bunch of failed states), of which there are already plenty, and AFAIK none of them use gold. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/27 "2024-06-08T16:14:17Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > On the other hand, let’s not forget that gold is both denser and harder than lead, so if bullets are the currency of the realm, gold does make a decent bullet. I don’t know too much about firearms, but my understanding is bullets are made of lead BECAUSE it is soft, and will therefore engage with the rifling in the gun’s barrel. If harder bullets were preferable, they would be made of something other than lead today. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/28 "2024-06-08T16:17:30Z")
That’s the thing with gold. There’s a pretty narrow window where it’s the best trade good. In normal times, the best thing to trade with is currency. That’s what the typical gold owner uses for normal transactions. They trade some of their gold for currency and then take the currency to their local store to buy things. The store isn’t likely to accept the gold directly. In apocalyptical times, the best things to have are vital necessities like food, water, medicine, shelter, gasoline, weapons, etc. The people that have those things aren’t going to trade them away for gold, which won’t help them stay alive. The main time when gold is the best thing to have is when you’re in the middle of a local collapse. If there’s another area which still has a functioning society with a currency-based economy, gold may help you get out of the local collapsed area and into the functioning area. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/29 "2024-06-08T16:18:59Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > It may also allow you to survive until conditions improve in your current location, if you can keep it’s presence enough of a secret that you aren’t robbed or killed for it. How can it allow you to survive, or do anything else at all for you, if you’re keeping it a secret? Gold only does you any good by spending it, and by spending it you’re revealing that you have it. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Or 51 countries - the Federal jurisdiction and 50 sovereign states which is why some states use goldbacks. No states use goldbacks. A few individuals in a few states use goldbacks. There’s probably a greater volume of trade in World of Warcraft gold than in goldbacks. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/30 "2024-06-08T16:32:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How can it allow you to survive, or do anything else at all for you, if you’re keeping it a secret? Gold only does you any good by spending it, and by spending it you’re revealing that you have it. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant spending it in such a way as to convert it to necessary goods without revealing the location or size of your store of wealth. Think a small number of hidden coins spent in small amounts with different vendors. Not likely to be successful, but probably better than having nothing at all in a “old money is no good and you can’t leave the country” situation, but less useful in a “all law has broken down; only violence matters” environment. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/31 "2024-06-08T16:51:01Z")
Suppose you want to buy a dozen eggs from a chicken farmer with gold. Don’t people realize just how small the bit of gold is? And how is the chicken farmer supposed to know the purity of the gold? And weigh it exactly on a mechanical scale? (You’re going to have a lifetime supply of precious batteries for an electric scale?) The ancients used touchstones but who is stocking up on those? You can get stone kits that require a variety of acids to test metals. Who will have those and keep them stocked with acid? Plus it wears away the bead of gold. If you want something you can easily trade for goods that are likely to be accepted get yourself a pile of old US silver coins. (Dropping a silver coin on a counter gives a good “ring” test that rules out most counterfeits.) Calling gold buying a religion is an insult to religions. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/32 "2024-06-08T19:59:43Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > If harder bullets were preferable, they would be made of something other than lead today. > **[Full metal jacket (ammunition)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_(ammunition))** > > A full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet is a small-arms projectile consisting of a soft core (often lead) encased in an outer shell ("jacket") of harder metal, such as gilding metal, cupronickel, or, less commonly, a steel alloy. A bullet jacket usually allows higher muzzle velocities than bare lead without depositing significant amounts of metal in the bore. It also prevents damage to bores from hard steel or armor-piercing core materials. > The full metal jacket bullet was invented in 1882 by Swiss Co... ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/33 "2024-06-08T20:06:05Z")
Yeah, the vast majority of bullets I’ve seen had copper alloy jackets. The only ones with unjacketed lead bullets I can recall were either cheap .22 rounds or museum pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/34 "2024-06-08T20:13:29Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > On the other hand, let’s not forget that gold is both denser and harder than lead, so if bullets are the currency of the realm, gold does make a decent bullet. [Depleted uranium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Military_applications) is what you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/35 "2024-06-08T21:14:10Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > [Depleted uranium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Military_applications) is what you are looking for. Or tungsten, if you can’t get your hands on uranium. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/36 "2024-06-08T21:19:51Z")
Tungsten will do in a pinch, but depleted uranium is preferable. From my previous link: > Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and flammable. On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it becomes sharper, preventing the dispersal that takes place with tungsten penetrators. DU penetrators are 20% more effective than tungsten rounds. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to ignite when in contact with oxygen. When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/37 "2024-06-08T21:32:06Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > And how is the chicken farmer supposed to know the purity of the gold? One of the advantages gold does have is that it’s really hard to counterfeit, and easy to detect counterfeit attempts. Any sort of density measure gets you most of the way there: Aside from tungsten, the only things with a density close to as high as gold are even more expensive. And it’s easy to tell the difference between gold and tungsten by the bite test. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/38 "2024-06-08T22:00:20Z")
Again, my context was with a **tiny bit of gold**. Measuring the volume of such a piece isn’t doable with a measuring cup or any such. And I already mentioned the problem with getting an accurate weight with an everyday mechanical balance scale. Sure, you can pay a lot of $ for equipment that would be accurate enough but how many people you want to do business with are going to have that or trust your equipment? Biting basically a flake is going to be tricky. Keep in mind that a gram of gold is 0.035 ounces (Av). And that’s way too big for the example I gave of buying a dozen eggs. I want to repeat, just _to make it extremely clear._ I was talking about the impracticality of paying for **something small with gold.** You want to buy a tank with gold? Entirely different problem. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/39 "2024-06-08T22:03:53Z")
> [@JohnnyEcks](#): > > Gold has no intrinsic value, but unless society returns to a truly preindustrial level, it retains perceived value, especially when you consider that a total collapse of society is much less likely than a disruptive change in management. Gold does have considerable intrinsic value for industrial use, like high conductivity, immunity to corrosion, and extreme malleability. But I assume you’re talking about gold as a medium of exchange. Whether gold is or is not a reliable means to preserve value and buy goods in various apocalyptic scenarios is a question that requires context, and the appropriate context is, compared to what? It certainly has far more value than fiat paper currency or electronic bits in a bank computer’s memory, neither of which have any intrinsic value at all. Precious gems may be thought to have intrinsic value, but gold alone has been the universal standard of exchange throughout recorded history, so the durability of its perceived value is probably higher than anything else. As an aside, many years ago in my youth I briefly ventured into a small investment in gold because it seemed like it might be fun, especially to get my hands on the actual substance. There was one bank (and only one) that had a special office for buying and selling gold. So I bought what to the best of my recollection was something that looked like a miniature gold bar – not a flat wafer, but more like a rectangular block, unless I’m misremembering. I don’t remember how much gold it was, but what I fondly remember is that the price at the time was around $400 an ounce, and a mere few months later it had soared to just over $800 an ounce. Looking at historical gold prices, this places the $400 price just prior to 1980, and the subsequent jump to over $800 a few months later sometime in 1980. No, I’m not that astute a gold speculator – that was just remarkable pure dumb luck! I remember when I went back to the gold office to sell, gold fever had set in and people were lined up to buy at around $800. The price subsequently collapsed and those poor folks would not see gold return to that level for 28 years. Fun stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623/40 "2024-06-08T22:16:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Precious gems may be thought to have intrinsic value, but gold alone has been the universal standard of exchange throughout recorded history, When was there ever a time or place where gold was a standard of exchange, but silver wasn’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nothing-has-changed-about-gold-except-the-price/1002623.md?page=3)