# Notre Dame on fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584 "2019-04-15T17:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/101 "2019-04-15T23:53:26Z")
I just want to stick my fingers in my ears and squeeze my eyes shut, and pretend I did not hear about this disaster. In my head I can imagine it is still there, and still the same. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/102 "2019-04-16T00:07:53Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Um… [I believe this is an image of the North Rose](https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2019/04/photos-notre-dame-cathedral-burns-p/n12_RTX6RSCY/main_1500.jpg?1555353824) It… doesn’t look good. And that’s before the spire collapsed, several more hours of fire can not have done it any good. That’s not the rose window, I think it’s a window in the attic above the rose window. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/103 "2019-04-16T00:09:30Z")
Sadly, construction & renovation often raises the risk of fire in old buildings. Old wood dries out and is easily combustible. Notre Dame was a beautiful building and will be again. It may take a lot of money & years of construction, but I think it will be rebuilt. I was initially confused when I heard the reports on my car radio. (heavy traffic and the radio was just background noise) Thought there was a fire at Notre Dame University. Took awhile to sink in they were talking about France. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/104 "2019-04-16T00:17:50Z")
Here’s[an article](http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/iloveny/minster/fire/peter_gibson.shtml)on the restoration of York Minster’s rose window after fire. It gives some hope but of course we don’t know what remains of Notre Dame’s windows yet. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/105 "2019-04-16T00:19:42Z")
[The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris-france-landmark-live-news) has information from a French journalist who reports: > [@](#): > > Laurent Valdiguié, a French journalist on the scene, reports that the north rose stained glass window – La Rosace Nord – “seems to have held”. > > “On the street, on the ground, no debris of stained glass. Just old broken stones… ‘We stay worried,’ whispers a fireman,” he tweeted. It’s a maybe. But at this point, I’ll take a maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/106 "2019-04-16T00:21:24Z")
Hooboy, would I hate to be the one who accidentally left the acetylene torch on. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/107 "2019-04-16T00:30:14Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > France typically uses large aerial firefighting aircraft, particularly the Canadair CL-415, to fight wildfires. Even if they were available nearby for deployment, such aircraft are in general not suited to fighting structure fires. A full load of water from a CL-415 weighs over 6 metric tonnes; that much water falling at once on the cathedral would be destructive of anything standing, including the centuries-old masonry structures. I’m not sure what would happen when that much water started flashing to steam on contact with the heat inside the building, either. Also importantly, it’s difficult to be precise in releasing that water – it’s meant to fight a forest fire, not a single building. The water drop would pose a danger to people, equipment, and structures near the cathedral. Finally, the smoke and increasing darkness would make it difficult to operate the aircraft over the site. At no time did they have control of the fire. At best the fire fighters kept the airborne ash content down somewhat. As to the weight of the water that would be a function of the dispersal pattern and that’s computer controlled. It’s not 1950. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/108 "2019-04-16T00:30:45Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > France typically uses large aerial firefighting aircraft, particularly the Canadair CL-415, to fight wildfires. Even if they were available nearby for deployment, such aircraft are in general not suited to fighting structure fires. A full load of water from a CL-415 weighs over 6 metric tonnes; that much water falling at once on the cathedral would be destructive of anything standing, including the centuries-old masonry structures. I’m not sure what would happen when that much water started flashing to steam on contact with the heat inside the building, either. Also importantly, it’s difficult to be precise in releasing that water – it’s meant to fight a forest fire, not a single building. The water drop would pose a danger to people, equipment, and structures near the cathedral. Finally, the smoke and increasing darkness would make it difficult to operate the aircraft over the site. And THIS is why helicopters weren’t dipping water out of the Seine and dumping it onto or into the cathedral. That method is designed for fighting fires in uninhabited areas ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/109 "2019-04-16T00:41:56Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thought there was a fire at Notre Dame University. I got just a quick mention in passing at first and thought “Again?” Much of the university was destroyed in the [Great Fire](https://175.nd.edu/175-moments/the-great-fire/) of 1879. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/110 "2019-04-16T00:43:56Z")
The Idiot Trump is tweeting that they should use tankers. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/111 "2019-04-16T00:49:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Um… [I believe this is an image of the North Rose](https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2019/04/photos-notre-dame-cathedral-burns-p/n12_RTX6RSCY/main_1500.jpg?1555353824) It… doesn’t look good. And that’s before the spire collapsed, several more hours of fire can not have done it any good. I wonder if the bird is okay? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/112 "2019-04-16T00:54:19Z")
Didn’t somebody do a 3D laser scan of the interior, at one point? If so, who has the files? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/113 "2019-04-16T01:05:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At no time did they have control of the fire. At best the fire fighters kept the airborne ash content down somewhat. > > As to the weight of the water that would be a function of the dispersal pattern and that’s computer controlled. It’s not 1950. Having toured the production factory of these aircraft, been shown the function of the water collection and release systems, and observed their airborne operation, I can say with confidence that they are neither computer-controlled, nor able to release water in precise, fine amounts. The water release is directly controlled by a lever in the cockpit actuating hydraulic doors. Even with precision flying and a quick on-off of the release system, you’re looking at something like a metric tonne of water falling as a unit onto a structure already weakened by fire. To keep it from spreading over a large area, you’d have to fly very low, which is impractical and unsafe in these conditions. But if you did drop it from a low altitude, it would fall mostly as a mass, rather than dispersing into a mist of droplets, and you’d get a huge hit of water on the order of a tonne or more hitting the building more or less at once. Water-bombers are not suited to structure fires inside cities. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/114 "2019-04-16T01:19:01Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Didn’t somebody do a 3D laser scan of the interior, at one point? > If so, who has the files? > [@](#): > > Thanks to the hard work of Dr. Andrew Tallon, Paris officials might be able to use 3D models of Notre Dame to eventually restore the landmark to its original glory. Tallon created a digital archive of the building in 2015 by using laser scanning technology. He has used this tech to do the same for numerous other Gothic cathedrals throughout the world… > > Tallon’s scans are so accurate that he may have discovered why some of Notre Dame’s pillars don’t line up: apparently, they could have been originally built around existing structures, which gives us some interesting insight into the building’s past. **Whether or not Tallon’s work will be made available to future Paris restoration professionals remains to be seen, as he tragically passed away in 2018.** > **[Notre Dame's post-fire restoration could be aided by a digital replica](https://www.techspot.com/news/79667-notre-dame-post-fire-restoration-could-aided-digital.html)** > > If you haven't been tuning in to non-tech news lately, you may not be aware that Notre Dame Cathedral – one of France's most well-known historical landmarks... He was a professor at Vassar College so they may have the records. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/115 "2019-04-16T01:31:10Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Having toured the production factory of these aircraft, been shown the function of the water collection and release systems, and observed their airborne operation, I can say with confidence that they are neither computer-controlled, nor able to release water in precise, fine amounts. [Large fixed-wing airtankers have complex, computer controlled retardant dispersal systems](https://www.ahsafa.org/?page_id=52) capable of both precise incremental drops and long trailing drops one-fourth of a mile or more in length. Retardant flow rates can also be controlled to vary the retardant coverage level dispersed as required by the intensity of the fire behavior and vegetative fuel type. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/116 "2019-04-16T01:33:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [By putting a misting system](https://www.marioff.com/references/buildings/st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-usa) in it like they did for St Patrick’s Cathedral in New York. Whether there was a misting system or a more conventional sprinkler; it appears that the fire started above where they would be (roof); meaning they wouldn’t be able to do much. > [@Magiver](#): > > As to the weight of the water that would be a function of the dispersal pattern and that’s computer controlled. It’s not 1950. Wrong. They’re designed for a force dump of water. > [@](#): > > [Bambi bucket promo material](https://www.sei-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bambi-bucket-backgrounder.pdf) > Discharging a solid column of water (not a spray) means less water evaporates on its descent plus it delivers more impact force. Also, there are very few buildings like Notre Dame being both extremely old & high, with only typically one floor, meaning a very high ceiling. In general, churches are bitch fires; a cathedral is only worse because, unlike your neighborhood church, they are higher than the 75’ - 100’ aerial platforms that FDs typically have. Even if they bought a medium sized bucket just for fighting a (until today) hypothetical fire in that church, a building that hasn’t burned in hundreds of years it probably wouldn’t justify the bureaucratic cost-benefit justification analysis to buy a piece of equipment that _might_ get used _once_. You’d also need a helicopter staged somewhat near the city & have the crew train on that to be able to call it in on the off chance it’s needed where the most benefit would be to have their base near a rural, forested area. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/117 "2019-04-16T01:38:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Large fixed-wing airtankers have complex, computer controlled retardant dispersal systems](https://www.ahsafa.org/?page_id=52) capable of both precise incremental drops and long trailing drops one-fourth of a mile or more in length. Retardant flow rates can also be controlled to vary the retardant coverage level dispersed as required by the intensity of the fire behavior and vegetative fuel type. Where ‘precise’ means “less that a fourth of a mile” (1300 feet, for a cathedral whose long dimension is 420 feet), and ‘incremental’ means ‘part of the load first, then another part of the load’ - fractions of 6.3 tonnes, in the case of the CL-415 France mainly uses. “Precision air drops” on a small wildfire are very different from hitting a specific building in the middle of a city. Some aircraft may have computer-controlled actuation of water or retardant release systems. To the best of my knowledge, the aircraft used in France do not. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/118 "2019-04-16T01:47:59Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Where ‘precise’ means “less that a fourth of a mile” (1300 feet, for a cathedral whose long dimension is 420 feet), and ‘incremental’ means ‘part of the load first, then another part of the load’ - fractions of 6.3 tonnes, in the case of the CL-415 France mainly uses. > > **“Precision air drops” on a small wildfire are very different from hitting a specific building in the middle of a city**. > > Some aircraft may have computer-controlled actuation of water or retardant release systems. To the best of my knowledge, the aircraft used in France do not. Obviously, what’s needed is smart water. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/119 "2019-04-16T01:53:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Obviously, what’s needed is smart water. It’s got electrolytes! > **[Glacéau smartwater - Original Products & Details | Coca-Cola US](https://www.coca-cola.com/us/en/brands/smartwater)** > > All you need to know about Glaceau Smartwater, the vapour-distilled water with added electrolytes. Check out the original products and their ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584/120 "2019-04-16T02:02:15Z")
This may be prematurely optimistic. My parents had a small kitchen fire when I was in 7th grade. Smoke damage on everything. It penetrated our kitchen cabinets and countertops. Even the appliance finishes had baked in soot. We spent days cleaning and the baked in soot was impossible to clean. Kitchen was almost a gut job. Down the hall, in the den the floor tile had soot baked in. My mom put in carpet. Getting rid of the soot smell was another almost impossible job. We used several coats of Kilz on the sheetrock trying to cover the soot. > **[Photos show center of Notre Dame cathedral miraculously intact](https://nypost.com/2019/04/15/photos-show-center-of-notre-dame-cathedral-miraculously-intact/)** > > Photos from inside Notre Dame show the central part of the historic Gothic cathedral still intact. Rows of wooden pews and much of the nave appears to have been saved, according to the images. R… > [@](#): > > Photos from inside Notre Dame show the central part of the historic Gothic cathedral still intact. > > Rows of wooden pews and much of the nave appears to have been saved, according to the images. > > “Only a small part of the vault collapsed. Interior seems relatively untouched. Hallelujah!” wrote @CathedralNotre. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dame-on-fire/832584.md?page=7)