# Notre Dame's new head football coach will be... **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 25, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860 "2009-11-25T02:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/201 "2009-12-03T22:36:13Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I love Notre Dame and hate Rudy. He’s an annoying, pestering little prick, IMHO. First he successfully pesters the University of Notre Dame into admitting him, then he pesters Coach Ara into letting him on the team, and Coach Devine into putting him in a game, and then Hollywood into making a movie about his one damn play at Notre Dame. Now I understand he’s a motivational speaker about the power of pestering. To hell with him. Dan Devine is the one I really feel sorry for. He was nice enough to let Rudy (who wasn’t even a real player) into a game, and what was his reward? To be presented as the villain in a movie! ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/202 "2009-12-04T14:29:02Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Congratulations - you’ve come full circle. You just brought up an example of a coach who can’t win with excellent talent that was highly regarded as prospects by all the scouting programs in the country. > > Now seriously - can we get off the recruitment pissing contest? To be fair Rich didn’t get the chance to coach most of the high ranked guys. Henne, Jake long, Manningham, Arrington, Breston,Hart, Mallet, Shawn Crable,and Justin Boren were the heart of those high Lloyd Carr rankings. The only good recruits Rich got to use were Donovan Warren, Branden Graham and Steve Shillings were the only high recruits left and They were used to the best of their abilities. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/203 "2009-12-04T15:13:26Z")
[Some commentary by Bob Ryan](http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2009/12/04/next_nd_coach_in_no_win_situation/): > [@](#): > > It would be nice if Notre Dame partisans could accept the fact that Notre Dame is no longer the destination it once was for all those big-city Catholic school linemen, quarterbacks, and running backs, that when Notre Dame was atop the collegiate world in the ’20s, ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, and even the ’60s, it was a time when African-Americans were systematically excluded from many big programs, and not just those in the South. > > The recruiting landscape is completely different to begin with, and the fact that Notre Dame is an academically challenging school makes life even harder for any Notre Dame coach. No one is asking Notre Dame to abandon its principles. Notre Dame has a right to run itself as it sees fit. But the Golden Domers need to realize that under its self-imposed restrictions, Notre Dame is no longer a school that has a right to expect a national championship. > > As long as Notre Dame cares as deeply about football as it does, another championship is always a possibility. But it is not a probability. The new coach will undoubtedly come in saluting Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, and Holtz, and he may very well have some charming little tale of growing up a Notre Dame fan and knowing all the words to that great fight song. He’ll do that because he’ll be expected to do that. It’s what the Golden Domers want to hear. > > What he should be saying, of course, is that, sure, I’m proud to be here, and this school has a great football legacy and all, but we’re in the 21st century now and our realistic goal is to be a top 20, maybe even a top 10 team. He should be saying that, you know, if all the tumblers fall into place some year and we have the right blend and the right schedule and the requisite amount of luck, we are one of the 15 or 20 programs that could come away with a championship. But we’ll need more luck than you could imagine, because many of the advantages we once had do not exist anymore. > > That’s what he \*should \*say. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/204 "2009-12-04T15:25:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What he should be saying, of course, is that, sure, I’m proud to be here, and this school has a great football legacy and all, but we’re in the 21st century now and our realistic goal is to be a top 20, maybe even a top 10 team. He should be saying that, you know, if all the tumblers fall into place some year and we have the right blend and the right schedule and the requisite amount of luck, we are one of the 15 or 20 programs that could come away with a championship. But we’ll need more luck than you could imagine, because many of the advantages we once had do not exist anymore. There isn’t a program in the country that should accept “we want to be in the top 20” as a goal. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/205 "2009-12-04T16:00:42Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I was born in the early seventies and recall the freezing cold winter days in the Big House with my dad. I know “3 yards and a cloud of dust”; I do not know Michigan sucking. > > _sobs_ Nobody does. This is a completely new thing for all of us, but simmer down, have a latte, and show some patience. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/206 "2009-12-04T16:26:16Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > There isn’t a program in the country that should accept “we want to be in the top 20” as a goal. As a goal, sure. As an _expectation_, though? That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/207 "2009-12-04T16:56:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As a goal, sure. As an _expectation_, though? That’s the point. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have “we should be in the top 10 consistently, and be in a position to challenge for the Nat’l Championship every couple years” as an expectation for Irish fans. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/208 "2009-12-04T17:15:14Z")
As realistic as that might be, chance being what it is, there’s not much point in a football coach managing expectations like that, anywhere really, but especially at a big boosterish program like ND. If a coach was to set a public goal like that he’d take a load of criticism off the bat and then would not really buy himself anything on the back end if he is not a wild success. Big-time college programs run on hope plus the fuzziness that is introduced into the definition of success by conferences and the rankings and BCS. But it’s hard to imagine a preseason top-25 coach that would say, yeah, you know we hope to finish with less than three losses to ranked teams. Does it ever happen? What would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/209 "2009-12-04T18:06:49Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have “we should be in the top 10 consistently, and be in a position to challenge for the Nat’l Championship every couple years” as an expectation for Irish fans. I do. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/210 "2009-12-04T18:23:43Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > I do. What are your expectations for Michigan every year? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/211 "2009-12-04T18:24:47Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > What are your expectations for Michigan every year? To do the same as they have , for they get amazing athletes and perform well. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/212 "2009-12-04T18:33:12Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > To do the same as they have , for they get amazing athletes and perform well. How do you define or evaluate “perform well”? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/213 "2009-12-04T18:34:55Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > There isn’t a program in the country that should accept “we want to be in the top 20” as a goal. And that speaks volumes to where Notre Dame thinks it is compared to where it is. Other smallish schools with competitive academics would probably see that as a reasonable long-term goal. They know they are not going to compete for titles every year because they can’t get the same caliber players year in and year out. Notre Dame has more money and tradition, but the fact that Knute Rocke coached there decades ago is not winning them games today. > [@Munch](#): > > I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have “we should be in the top 10 consistently, and be in a position to challenge for the Nat’l Championship every couple years” as an expectation for Irish fans. Their record without Lou Holtz does not reflect that. They have been in the year-end top ten only one time in the last 15 years. Part of that is bad hiring, but part of it is that they do not occupy the kind of dominant position that would let them reach the top ten or better every year. Why didn’t Urban Meyer go to Notre Dame a few years ago, and why are some of the other coaches who are supposedly in the running for this job staying put? I think a lot of it is that they don’t want to get fired in a few years for not reaching unrealistic expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/214 "2009-12-04T18:44:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > How do you define or evaluate “perform well”? Well, they win football games. I’d prefer them to win more of those football games than they lose. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/215 "2009-12-04T18:51:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And that speaks volumes to where Notre Dame thinks it is compared to where it is. Yet I didn’t mention once in that statement whether ND is meeting that goal, or is even close to that goal. It doesn’t speak a single syllable as to where ND thinks it is. ND and their fans know very much where they are right now. It seems every blogger and sports writer out there is more than happy to overinflate what they think ND thinks or its fans think without actually providing any quotes. My favorite has to be the dozens of “Notre Dame is irrelevant” articles I’ve seen. Yup - nothing says “irrelevant” like constant attention. > [@](#): > > Their record without Lou Holtz does not reflect that. You understand the difference between expecations and results, right, and how they rarely coincide? Ever heard the phrase “aim for the stars you might hit the moon”? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/216 "2009-12-04T18:54:56Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Well, they win football games. I’d prefer them to win more of those football games than they lose. So at the end of a 7-6 season you’d be happy? That’s your only expectation of the Wolverines? “Welp, it’s been a good season. Too bad Texas is going to overtake our all-time winning percentage and all-times win record in a few years - but we went 7-6, you just can’t ask for more than that.”? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/217 "2009-12-04T19:44:24Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So at the end of a 7-6 season you’d be happy? That’s your only expectation of the Wolverines? “Welp, it’s been a good season. Too bad Texas is going to overtake our all-time winning percentage and all-times win record in a few years - but we went 7-6, you just can’t ask for more than that.”? Really? Yep. No, I’m completely fucking with you. I want to see Michigan win every game, but that doesn’t happen for anyone, even Michigan. Notre Dame is largely irrelevant as far as national championships go. It’s relevant because the old people that are writing about it and bitching about its relevancy still remember something about Notre Dame. The recruits? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/218 "2009-12-04T19:49:05Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Yet I didn’t mention once in that statement whether ND is meeting that goal, or is even close to that goal. Point is that that’s a logical or even lofty goal for a lot of programs. All 119 schools could say they want to win multiple championships, but wouldn’t that be bullshit for 80-plus percent of them? > [@](#): > > You understand the difference between expecations and results, right, and how they rarely coincide? Ever heard the phrase “aim for the stars you might hit the moon”? Your point is well taken. It’s fine to set this as a goal. If they decide anything less than those results is insufficient, that would be unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/219 "2009-12-04T19:49:57Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > I want to see Michigan win every game, but that doesn’t happen for anyone, even Michigan. Of course not. But what are your reasonable expectations at the beginning of the season? I had (what I believed to be) reasonable expectations of the Irish going 9-3 this season. A loss to USC and possibly Pittsburgh, and something random happening. No one saw us losing to Navy (again) or UConn. Before the season began, losing to Stanford was out of the question as well. > [@](#): > > Notre Dame is largely irrelevant as far as national championships go. Any given year, there are only, at most, 7 or 8 teams that are relevant as far as national championships. But an argument can be made preseason for at least 20 of them (12-15 of those arguments being of the “a lot needs to happen for Texas Tech this year…” variety). It is not unreasonable to put ND in that 20. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860/220 "2009-12-04T19:53:58Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Of course not. But what are your reasonable expectations at the beginning of the season? I had (what I believed to be) reasonable expectations of the Irish going 9-3 this season. A loss to USC and possibly Pittsburgh, and something random happening. No one saw us losing to Navy (again) or UConn. Before the season began, losing to Stanford was out of the question as well. > Any given year, there are only, at most, 7 or 8 teams that are relevant as far as national championships. But an argument can be made preseason for at least 20 of them (12-15 of those arguments being of the “a lot needs to happen for Texas Tech this year…” variety). It is not unreasonable to put ND in that 20. Hence, our disagreement. Notre Dame might get a year or two or sneak into the discussion, but I don’t buy that they can become a perennial top-5 or top-10 powerhouse. I respect the reason that I feel that way (their academic standards), but it shuts them out of getting a lot of prospects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/notre-dames-new-head-football-coach-will-be/518860.md?page=12)