# Nov 4 - This Nightmare Must End: The Trump/Pence Regime Must Go! protest **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432 "2017-11-01T20:39:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/141 "2017-11-05T02:10:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since internet rumors about Trump’s mental health from anonymous people with unknown motives won’t actually change the fact that Trump is president and a real diagnosis might I’m sure Trump can live with the former. He is the president now, but who knows what the federal and state investigations into him and his administration will find. Keep in mind the house may shift parties in 2018, and we may get legitimate investigations into Trump & Co. starting in 2019. The GOP investigated Benghazi 7 separate times, imagine how many investigations the dems are going to do into Trump & co with his long history of suspected sex crimes and financial crimes (not to mention collaboration with Russia). Even if Trump can’t be indicted while sitting and he isn’t impeached, he may be indicted and arrested after he leaves office. As long as his cabinet and the judiciary prevents him from doing anything truly authoritarian and stupid, his presidency won’t be ‘that’ bad. But he sets a bad precedent for the next deranged, mentally ill white nationalist authoritarian. The only sad part is that the public won’t learn anything. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/142 "2017-11-05T02:14:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Since internet rumors about Trump’s mental health from anonymous people with unknown motives won’t actually change the fact that Trump is president and a real diagnosis might I’m sure Trump can live with the former. Also, a real diagnosis probably wouldn’t be sufficient to kick him out of office. I think his behavior is erratic and dangerous, and indicate mental instability, but I suspect there’s a world of difference between ‘‘mental instability’’ and ‘‘mentally unfit to lead’’ and I honestly don’t know whether that standard could be met. The evaluator would have to conclusively determine that the pattern of behaviors he exhibits are due to the specific traits of a specific illness. We’d run into the problem that a lot of folks enumerate when asking about personality disorders: ‘’'When is a person mentally ill and when are they just a raving asshole?" I personally don’t think those two things ever need be mutually exclusive. But I doubt we have precedent for even conducting such a mental evaluation. I doubt we even have clinical standards that describe what duties the office of a president entails and how mental illness may or may not infringe upon those duties. Just setting up the infrastructure to objectively\* define those parameters would take a team of researchers, clinicians and other experts that would likely take years. And then the evaluation. Who would do it that could not reasonably be called biased one way or another? Assuming we’d use the DSM, it bears noting that the whole construction of personality disorder in DSM is highly culturally biased, to begin with. The DSM is not some perfectly objective tome of clinical knowledge, it is itself influenced by politics, cultural norms and biases. In a very real sense, it is up to the American People to decide whether or not Trump is unfit to lead. We’ll find out their diagnosis in a few years. Basically, nothing can be done. Well… one thing might be done. Some intelligent successor to Trump’s throne might put in place the infrastructure to guard against future crazy people holding office. But actually, I should be really clear, my problem is not with crazy people being president. My problem is with people whose mental illness prevents them from performing essential duties of their jobs. But do you know how easily those two ideas can become conflated? The worst thing that could come out of such a crusade would be to further stigmatize the mentally ill. We deal with enough stigma as it is. I don’t trust the average American person to pick up on all these nuances. Or perhaps I should say I don’t trust to average American media outlet to do so. They get mental health shit wrong all the time, I don’t see why they would suddenly get it right now. \*As objectively as we can, anyhow ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/143 "2017-11-05T02:33:37Z")
Lots of presidents and world leaders have been mentally ill. LBJ and Teddy Roosevelt supposedly had bipolar disorder. Churchill and Lincoln both had major depression. > **[Study: Half of All Presidents Suffered From Mental Illness](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201602/study-half-all-presidents-suffered-mental-illness)** > > How many presidents would you guess had mental illness? > [@](#): > > According to a study by Jonathan Davidson of the Duke University Medical Center and colleagues, who reviewed biographical sources for the first 37 presidents (1776-1974), half of those men had been afflicted by mental illness—and 27% met those criteria while in office, something that could have clearly affected their ability to perform their jobs. > > The authors of the study concluded that 24% percent of presidents met the diagnostic criteria for depression, including James Madison, John Quincy Adams, Franklin Pierce, Abraham Lincoln, and Calvin Coolidge. (Depression seemed to ease for the group about a century ago, coincidently, around the time electricity and indoor plumbing swept the nation. I’m not saying the two are connected but I have my suspicions.) > > Davidson and his team also found evidence of anxiety disorders, ranging from social phobia to generalized anxiety disorder, among 8% of the presidents, including Thomas Jefferson, Ulysses S. Grant, Coolidge, and Woodrow Wilson. > > More seriously, the team concluded that 8% of presidents had signs of bipolar disorder, Lyndon Johnson and Theodore Roosevelt among them. Indeed, Theodore Roosevelt’s decision to go on a two-year expedition of unexplored areas of the Amazon smacks of manic thinking. (Only 16 of the 19 expedition members survived the ordeal.) > > Finally, 8% of the presidents studied exhibited evidence of alcohol abuse or dependence. Pierce died of cirrhosis of the liver; Grant was once allegedly so drunk he fell of his horse during a military parade in New Orleans; and Nixon was once unable to take a rather important phone call from the British Prime Minister because he was “loaded." Lots of presidents have had mental illness, but when that illness interrupts their ability to work then it becomes a serious issue. If Trump has dementia and it makes it hard for him to concentrate, focus or learn that is a serious issue. If he has a narcissistic disorder and it makes it hard for him to have any concern for the public, or it makes him oversensitive to criticism until he lashes out in dangerous ways then it becomes a public hazard. There is a line between having responsibility while having an illness (physical or mental), vs having an illness that makes it hard to handle the responsibility. Where that line is drawn, I don’t know. But with Trump’s angry tweeting at north Korea, his calls to attack the first amendment because he is oversensitive to criticism, his inability to accept he lost the popular vote makes him invent a fantasy that millions voted illegally which will be used to suppress voters, his constant lying, his complete lack of understanding of government policy, etc. his illnesses are affecting his ability to handle his responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/144 "2017-11-05T03:05:52Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Lots of presidents and world leaders have been mentally ill. LBJ and Teddy Roosevelt supposedly had bipolar disorder. Churchill and Lincoln both had major depression. > > [Study: Half of All Presidents Suffered From Mental Illness | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201602/study-half-all-presidents-suffered-mental-illness) > > Lots of presidents have had mental illness, but when that illness interrupts their ability to work then it becomes a serious issue. > > If Trump has dementia and it makes it hard for him to concentrate, focus or learn that is a serious issue. If he has a narcissistic disorder and it makes it hard for him to have any concern for the public, or it makes him oversensitive to criticism until he lashes out in dangerous ways then it becomes a public hazard. > > There is a line between having responsibility while having an illness (physical or mental), vs having an illness that makes it hard to handle the responsibility. Where that line is drawn, I don’t know. But with Trump’s angry tweeting at north Korea, his calls to attack the first amendment because he is oversensitive to criticism, his inability to accept he lost the popular vote makes him invent a fantasy that millions voted illegally which will be used to suppress voters, his constant lying, his complete lack of understanding of government policy, etc. his illnesses are affecting his ability to handle his responsibilities. I’m not disagreeing that it’s a serious issue, I’m arguing that it’s almost logistically impossible to do anything about it. It’s relatively easy to diagnose someone with a mental illness. It is orders of magnitude much more difficult to determine that the President’s mental illness makes him unable to perform the essential duties of his job. That is particularly the case if every person in the President’s sphere of influence is highly motivated to avoid such a diagnosis. In today’s political climate it would also be near impossible to get anything resembling an objective evaluation. That’s not even considering all of the political machinations and backlash and consequences of such an attempted undertaking in a country generally primed for violence. I’m not arguing that this reality is good for fair, just that I don’t see it as a particularly productive pathway for people who want to get Trump thrown out of office. It’s one thing to say to another person on a message board ‘‘Can’t you see that this person is mentally ill? Here are a number of behaviors that point to mental illness’’ and another thing entirely to actually diagnose and remove Trump from office. I think the only means of getting rid of him that is really on the table is convincing people not to vote for him for a second term. And I honestly have no idea how to do that. Clearly, none of us do, or else he wouldn’t have been elected in the first place. (Upon reread: People dealt with _social phobia_ as President of the US? :eek: Christ.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/145 "2017-11-05T03:23:32Z")
I think you’d have to be kind of crazy to want to be President. That does not make it right to elect a stupid asshole though. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/146 "2017-11-05T03:36:04Z")
Oh… And I’m still waiting for a Trump supporter to defend his mocking and making fun of the disabled. ---
**Author:** ![Pinmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@Pinmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pinmin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/147 "2017-11-05T03:41:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > HW Bush voted for Cinton. [Just FYI, not true](http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/08/media/george-w-bush-rush-limbaugh-hillary-clinton/index.html). Edit: NM, got W and H.W. mixed up. But the HW “news” was hearsay from a single person. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/148 "2017-11-05T03:45:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think it’s a strange definition of “crisis” that doesn’t include North Korea launching ballistic missiles over Japan. Or is that indeed a crisis, just one that you think Trump “self-generated”? Good point. Are you under the impression that Trump’s strategy toward North Korea is sound and reasoned? On what basis? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/149 "2017-11-05T04:21:21Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Did you read the article? It has nothing to do with putting a skeptic in charge. This isn’t a hypothetical. The critical DoE functions have already ceased, because nobody who works there knows how to do the work. An interview with the guy formerly running the DoE indicates that we’ve already had near-miss incidents with nukes, among other things. It was lengthy, so I skimmed most of it (if there are some particular areas that you thing deserve scrutiny, please indicate). It described the federal government as “Two million federal employees take orders from 4,000 political appointees.” When those political appointments are in transition, by and large the career civil servants step in to fill the void. This happens when an ambassadorship hasn’t yet been given away, and I imagine it happens similarly at most of the federal departments. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s not just the DoE. Hundreds of top-level positions at critical departments across the nation were never filled, meaning a great many of them are effectively defunct. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I just wanted to add a personal spin to this. The director of my department left last year, along with our CEO, so I have not had an official boss for about a year now. I have found it very challenging to do my job without supervision. While I’m pretty damned good at what I do, there are tertiary responsibilities I had to take over that I don’t have as much experience with, and nobody else at my job knows how to do those things, even a little. The lack of leadership - just two unfilled spots - has impacted every person within our department and ultimately had a negative effect on everyone’s performance. > > When I look at what’s going on with the DoE, I can’t help but imagine everyone in office admin suddenly being gone. No Director of Development, no CEO, no Director of Business Operations, no Accounting Manager, no Senior Director of Programs, that is a decent analogy for what we’re currently facing across multiple state departments, including the Department of Agriculture, the CDC, etc. etc. A bunch of lower-level employees trying to hold shit together without really knowing what they are doing. > > I don’t work with nukes. Not to be too cavalier about it, but I haven’t really noticed, which makes me question your claim that they’re really ‘critical’. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > That should concern you. When I get upset, it’s usually about social issues, but this concerns me far more than any social issue ever has. As for the ‘‘crying wolf,’’ I was harshly critical of GW while in office, but I always pushed back on the hysterical stuff, and I would hope I come off as level-headed and fair, for the most part, so I’m just gonna have to ask you to take my word for it, that me, and a bunch of other reasonable people, have never seen anything like this. Yours is an opinion that I respect, so I’ll file it away as one data point that indicates Trump is significantly worse. I hope you’ll understand it won’t be the _only_ data point I take into consideration, but it is one that I’ll assign some value to. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I went ahead and asked my husband his take on this, although I pretty much knew the answer, and he said the same. He said the protests by these mental health professionals probably served to delegitimize the profession in the eyes of roughly 1/3 of the electorate, at least; that you can’t diagnose someone you’ve never met; and he was further concerned that the emphasis on personality disorders would further stigmatize that classification of mental illnesses while ignoring that fact that a lot of the way those disorders are defined are inherently culturally biased. That was his off-the-cuff response. > > Oh, he also thinks, and I’m not sure that I agree, that having a severely personality disordered Commander in Chief sucks balls but probably doesn’t rise to the level of Constitutional relevance. He believes that the bar for being declared unfit for work based on a mental illness should be really, really high, and I agree with him on that. I also agree that such a determination, if it were to be made, should be made with a team of mental health professionals in a lengthy, in-depth evaluation process that included not only interviews with him but with multiple people he knows. I think your husband nailed it. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > So here’s an analogy. Villainous Presidents of days past are typically something like Lex Luthor. They’re bad guys with a clearly defined opponent and a plan. > > Trump is Heath Ledger’s Joker. > And I am Batman. This is a post that’ll stick with me for a while. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Good point. Are you under the impression that Trump’s strategy toward North Korea is sound and reasoned? On what basis? I’d give him about an A- on handling Syria, but only about a C+ on handling North Korea (and it’s probably only that high thanks to the stabilizing influence of James Mattis). His tweeting hasn’t helped anything. The fact that he has more or less straddled the line between looking weak in the face of North Korean aggression and managed to avoid starting a war with them (so far) is a good thing, I think. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/150 "2017-11-05T04:44:02Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If Trump wants to end the rumors about his mental health he can submit to legitimate, objective medical exams including a full neurological workup. Did former Presidents Obama, Bush, and Clinton subject themselves to “full neurological workups”? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/151 "2017-11-05T04:53:51Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yep. So I have heard. They hand wave it away. Total Bullshit. > > I would like Hurricane or Octopus to defend Trumps obvious behavior of mocking the disabled. And how that speaks to Trumps emotional maturity. > > And would like to ask Trump supporters what they would say if their own child did such a thing. Come on, defend it. I’m a Trump supporter now? Well, then. I do like the fact that he was able to pick a SC Justice. Aside from that I don’t know what policies of Trump I actually support since I haven’t seen all that many. I don’t think a wall is practical. Though it is infrastructure and jobs… Trump’s maturity? Yeah. Haven’t seen much of that. Trump is a clown. Trump making fun of the disabled? Trump makes fun of all sorts of people. Why should the disabled by excluded? He’s an equal opportunity jack-ass. Should I feel bad that Trump makes fun of people including the disabled? No. No I shouldn’t. Everyone here makes fun of Trump and he might be mentally disabled so that’s just how people act nowadays. Now concerning if my own child acted like Trump or Clinton or any other of these nutty, self absorbed, power hungry politicians I’d give them a timeout. But our politicians are grown people and we reward them for their corrupt, self serving behavior. Why should we expect better? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/152 "2017-11-05T04:53:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Did former Presidents Obama, Bush, and Clinton subject themselves to “full neurological workups”? They didn’t cause anyone to think they were batshit insane, dangerously unstable and self-centered enough to start a war if he’s insulted. How’s that for a start? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/153 "2017-11-05T04:56:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Did former Presidents Obama, Bush, and Clinton subject themselves to “full neurological workups”? Obama, Bush and Clinton weren’t obviously batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/154 "2017-11-05T05:00:06Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Obama, Bush and Clinton weren’t obviously batshit crazy. As an Australian, why are you so _concerned_? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/155 "2017-11-05T05:06:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > As an Australian, why are you so _concerned_? Seems reasonable to me. They’re our allies. Any conflict we spark they’re probably going to be involved with financially and with the commitment of some of their troops, as they did in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/156 "2017-11-05T05:09:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > As an Australian, why are you so _concerned_? Because, I don’t know whether you know anything about international politics (obviously not too much) but everything that erupts out of Trumps erratic gob affects much of the western world, Australia included. Do you think that Trump is just a US problem-child? Really? Are you that insular that you think his madness doesn’t have repercussions on a global scale? Go scurry back under your rock D’Anconia…you’ll be safe there. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/157 "2017-11-05T05:23:58Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Because, I don’t know whether you know anything about international politics (obviously not too much) but everything that erupts out of Trumps erratic gob affects much of the western world, Australia included. > > **Do you think that Trump is just a US problem-child?** Really? Are you that insular that you think his madness doesn’t have repercussions on a global scale? > > Go scurry back under your rock D’Anconia…you’ll be safe there. Hell, he thought a county clerk denying marriage licenses for gay couples after the SCOTUS decision was only a problem that concerned that specific county. [And that everyone else should butt out.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=764980&highlight=Rowan) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/158 "2017-11-05T05:33:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > On the left we feel that way when the right makes any criticisms of democrats. After all the stuff that was said about Obama, it is hard to take anything they say seriously. In that regard I can see what you mean, if Cory Booker or Joe Biden runs in 2020, we will not listen to their complaints because these are the same people who said Obama was pro-terrorism and born in Kenya. I think that’s where we’re at as a county. Most things the D’s say is discounted by the R’s and vice-versa. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Having said that, what did the left say about Bush or Romney that was mainstream that was similar to what we say about Trump? Here is just one example to start with: [url=[http://www.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/the\_big\_idea/2006/01/the\_powermadness\_of\_king\_george.htmlSlate:](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2006/01/the_powermadness_of_king_george.htmlSlate:) The Power-Madness of King George - Is Bush turning America into an elective dictatorship? > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > How do you rectify the fact that a lot of people on the left would feel much better with someone like Pence or Bush in charge, if we are going to treat Pence or Bush the same? I’m not sure what you mean. I’ve had quite a few Ds tell me that they prefer Trump to Pence. For example, these were posted earlier in the thread: > [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s more like evil but utterly incompetent is preferable to evil and competent. > [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Whatever Donnie’s numerous faults, he has not an ounce of religious feeling. His sidekick is a moralistic puritan. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > There are also the hurricanes, which didn’t go so well. The one in Puerto Rico was badly mishandled, and plays into the image of Trump having white nationalist tendencies since he and his party reacted better to hurricanes on the mainland. I’m not sure it was so much that the hurricane was mishandled, so much as Puerto Rico itself has been mishandled for so many years before that. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Let me ask you this then, why aren’t all these democrat psychologists marching about anyone else on the right or left? As Spice Weasel noted, they can’t give an actual diagnosis, so they’re just playing politics. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Can you honestly say you can look at everything Donald Trump has said and done in the last 2 years and not question his moral, mental or emotional fitness for office? There are a lot of things about him that I question. I think he’s an asshole, but that probably has more to do with him being a New Yorker than any fake diagnosis or dementia (which, btw, I haven’t really seen evidence of yet) > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > … So in practice, at the moment, Trump isn’t any worse for the constitution than Obama, Bush or Clinton. > > … > > Anyway, point being in recent history all presidents did illegal, unconstitutional things. And in practice, for now, Trump isn’t any worse than any of them (if I’m wrong, I’m open to having it explained why). > > … This sounds like some even-handed analysis. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/159 "2017-11-05T05:36:54Z")
Still, good to see you got through the great antifas night of terror! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432/160 "2017-11-05T05:51:32Z")
I was busy today and didn’t watch the news. Are Trump and Pence still in office? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nov-4-this-nightmare-must-end-the-trump-pence-regime-must-go-protest/800432.md?page=9)