# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/261 "2017-11-17T00:09:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If the Democrats boot Franken due to a new “no abusers/harassers/gropers” policy going forward, then that’s a morally superior stance to the Republican stance re: Trump, IMO. As noted earlier, if the Democrats boot Franken it’s a little-to-no cost decision, since he’s a senator rather than president and because he would be replaced by another Democrat. It’s not remotely comparable to losing the presidency to the other party over personal failings. The comparison is completely invalid. ETA: FTR, the reaction of liberals in this thread has been somewhat less partisan than I would have expected. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/262 "2017-11-17T00:11:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As noted earlier, if the Democrats boot Franken it’s a little-to-no cost decision, since he’s a senator rather than president and because he would be replaced by another Democrat. It’s not remotely comparable to losing the presidency to the other party over personal failings. The comparison is completely invalid. It’s a start. At the very least the Democrats could say they have absolutely zero tolerance for abuse/harassment/violation-of-consent going forward, and actually mean it. Until the Republicans utterly reject Trump, they can’t/won’t. > [@](#): > > ETA: FTR, the reaction of liberals in this thread has been somewhat less partisan than I would have expected. Do you mean that you’re surprised that so many liberals have denounced Franken and said he should resign? Or you’re surprised that I’m talking about the political concerns on top of the moral/ethical concerns? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/263 "2017-11-17T00:12:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hard to rank some of thees guys, but of your top 4, Cosby is the only one who drugged his victims, no? Is that supposed to make it worse? Harvey raped his victims just as much as Cosby did, and they had to be awake through it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/264 "2017-11-17T00:12:53Z")
It’s disturbing to me that some people apparently regard Ms. Tweeden as an infant. She lacks the ability to weigh Franken’s apology and decide for herself if it’s sufficient, it seems. Franken’s fate must be decided by The People. It should be obvious I am not a fan of Franken’s politics, but this is insane. He did something that was jerkish, and he now recognizes that jerkishness and has apologized. In detail. Not “I’m sorry if anyone was offended,” but a for realsies apology. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/265 "2017-11-17T00:14:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > She was uncomfortable, didn’t want to do it, but she said OK. The details of her story, as told by her, don’t match the analysis of “without my consent”. There’s some question as to whether badgering people until they agree to something constitutes “consent”. On a related note, see Dave Chappelle on “grab em by the pussy”: [Dave Chappelle defends Donald Trump in bizarre set, according to report](https://mic.com/articles/158667/dave-chappelle-defends-trump-slams-lgbtq-and-women-s-rights-activists-in-bizarre-set#.CcKHNQhtr) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s a start. At the very least the Democrats could say they have absolutely zero tolerance for abuse/harassment/violation-of-consent going forward, and actually mean it. No, it won’t show that. It might show that if they were willing to pay a serious price for this zero tolerance policy - the same price you expect the Republicans to have paid. But having zero tolerance at no cost to yourself is not truly zero tolerance, and doesn’t show anything over someone who is in a very different situation. > [@](#): > > Do you mean that you’re surprised that so many liberals have denounced Franken and said he should resign? Or you’re surprised that I’m talking about the political concerns on top of the moral/ethical concerns? The first. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/266 "2017-11-17T00:14:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s disturbing to me that some people apparently regard Ms. Tweeden as an infant. > > She lacks the ability to weigh Franken’s apology and decide for herself if it’s sufficient, it seems. Franken’s fate must be decided by The People. > > It should be obvious I am not a fan of Franken’s politics, but this is insane. He did something that was jerkish, and he now recognizes that jerkishness and has apologized. In detail. Not “I’m sorry if anyone was offended,” but a for realsies apology. I think her acceptance of the apology is an important factor to consider, but I don’t think it need be determinative. Does it? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/267 "2017-11-17T00:19:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > She was uncomfortable, didn’t want to do it, but she said OK. The details of her story, as told by her, don’t match the analysis of “without my consent”. This is the kind of parsing and glossing I’m talking about. If part of her story, and her perspective, matters to you, why are we doing “analysis” to falsify the thesis of the entire story? Are you saying she’s mistaken when she says it was without her consent? Editing to add: in case this is where the confusion is coming from, I’m referring to the title of the piece: “Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/268 "2017-11-17T00:19:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s some question as to whether badgering people until they agree to something constitutes “consent”. I’m not going to argue the general case, as I suppose there are some instances where that might be true. But not this one. She knew she was doing a scene with him where they kiss. There was going to be a kiss as soon as she agreed to do the scene. Rehearsing scenes is not some crazy, unheard of behavior. They were not in some dark alley. No, she had agency to refuse, but she said “OK”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/269 "2017-11-17T00:22:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Consent is, as always, the key word. > > Some of those pix clearly were taken with the gleeful cooperation of the persons in the pic. Many of them weren’t. So in your opinion, the key here is that Miss Tweeden did not consent to having the pictures taken? Consent is “always” to be gained before taking someone’s picture, especially one that may cast them in a bad light or make them the unwitting focus of negative attention, is that what your saying? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/270 "2017-11-17T00:25:07Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This is the kind of parsing and glossing I’m talking about. If part of her story, and her perspective, matters to you, why are we doing “analysis” to falsify the thesis of the entire story? Are you saying she’s mistaken when she says it was without her consent? > > Editing to add: in case this is where the confusion is coming from, I’m referring to the title of the piece: “Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent…” She may have thought she hadn’t given consent, but from her story Franken reasonably thought he had consent. I’m not going to convict Franken on what she thought she was telling him when her plain words were “OK”. If this story were told in court, would you say Franken was guilty of kissing her without her consent? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/271 "2017-11-17T00:25:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > McMullin was only on the ballot in a few states. 11 states, per footnote #35. > **[Evan McMullin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_McMullin)** > > David Evan McMullin (born April 2, 1976) is an American political candidate and former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) officer. McMullin ran as an independent in the 2016 United States presidential election and in the 2022 United States Senate election in Utah. > McMullin was a CIA operations officer from 2001 to 2010. In 2011, he received an MBA from the University of Pennsylvania and worked as an investment banker for about a year and a half. He was a senior adviser on national security iss... ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/272 "2017-11-17T00:26:12Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > She said that he kissed her without her consent, so if what she said is important to you, there it is. **But yes, the allegation is that he wrote a kiss in, then said they needed to rehearse it, and she didn’t think they needed to rehearse it, but tried to laugh it off, and then he grabbed her and shoved his tongue in her mouth.** She could have done lots of things. **What I’ve just described is what he actually did, which seems the important part of the story.** I don’t know what happened, you don’t know what happened, lots of things could have happened. But, as was just the case with all the Roy Moore shit, and all the other shit, there’s a big difference between saying well, hard to say exactly where to come down on some of this, let’s withhold absolute judgment, and trying to pick apart the story and attack her motivations (generally, not you in particular). The bolded part is not an accurate rendition of Miss Tweed’s story nor an accurate description of the rendition. I also find it interesting that you declare that you described “what he actually did” and immediately follow it up with “I don’t know what happened, you don’t know what happened”. Which is it? Did you describe what Mr. Franken did? If you did, how did you describe what he did without knowing what happened? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/273 "2017-11-17T00:29:46Z")
We are presented with the claim: He kissed me without my consent. We are given, by her as evidence, an exchange between the two in which she gave consent. The claim is not substantiated. Now, maybe the reporter was sloppy. Maybe something got edited out. But as it is reported there, I think it’s unfair to say that Franken did not reasonably think he had consent, regardless of what might have been going through her mind at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/274 "2017-11-17T00:32:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > She may have thought she hadn’t given consent, but from her story Franken reasonably thought he had consent. I’m not going to convict Franken on what she thought she was telling him when her plain words were “OK”. > > If this story were told in court, would you say Franken was guilty of kissing her without her consent? No. Then again, I’m not in court, right? That question hasn’t come up. If somebody has asked you to convict Al Franken, rest assured I’m against that. What I would do, non-hypothetically, is decide not to attack her motivations or pick away at her story to advance a political agenda, when her story is quite credible and demonstrates at the very least that Franken acted in a disgusting way and should apologize, which he did. Choosing not to attack the victim is an option, even if I’m not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/275 "2017-11-17T00:32:50Z")
A stage kiss doesn’t involve tongue, or grabbing the head, etc. She didn’t consent to a tongue in her mouth, and she obviously didn’t consent to her body being used (whether physically touched or not) as an object of sexual derision in the photograph. Neither of these things are the end of the world. But they are violations of consent, and the Democratic party should have zero tolerance for violation of consent, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/276 "2017-11-17T00:34:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Until 15 minutes ago, pretty much my favorite Senator. > > What a pathetic apology. Fuck him. Sure, there’s a non-zero chance this is all manufactured, but there’s also a non-zero chance Franken is a lizard person. Fuck all harassers and assaulters; every last one of them. If he’s a tenth of the person I thought he was 15 minutes ago, he’ll give a much better apology and then resign. Hypothetically, since you’ve already alluded to a non-zero chance that this is all manufactured, what you expect to hear from a man you think highly of when he is wrongfully accused of this kind of behavior? If he’s a tenth of the person you thought AND he’s innocent of the accusation, what should he do? This is not saying he is innocent or that she is lying (although I don’t think the picture is evidence of groping), but I’m curious as to what a reasonable response from an innocent man looks like to those decrying the ‘non-apologies.’ Seems despite an absence of evidence of wrong-doing or even an investigation or trial to determine guilt, we are all expected to assume the worst for the sole reason that if it’s true, it is truly objectionable. And anyone accused should lose their jobs. Period. This is hard stuff. I feel for anyone who is molested, assaulted or made to feel uncomfortable by a person in a position of power, but it seems the power has now shifted and that is also worrisome to me, too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/277 "2017-11-17T00:34:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, it won’t show that. It might show that if they were willing to pay a serious price for this zero tolerance policy - the same price you expect the Republicans to have paid. But having zero tolerance at no cost to yourself is not truly zero tolerance, and doesn’t show anything over someone who is in a very different situation. So you think there’s no difference between booting a violator-of-consent and not booting a violator-of-consent? I think there’s a difference, and a difference in how that looks, especially in the long term. I think this is a big moment either way, and whether Franken stays or goes will be referenced as a major event years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/278 "2017-11-17T00:36:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think her acceptance of the apology is an important factor to consider, but I don’t think it need be determinative. Does it? If so, why? I don’t think it’s determinative either. But I’d weigh it a lot more than remarks by amateur pundits and professional poseurs who opine within 24 hours of the story breaking. I’d weigh it less than a report by an ethics committee, assuming the report isn’t an obvious whitewash. Or a detailed treatment by a fair observer, made after careful investigation. Which doesn’t happen in 24 hours. In Fall 2017, I think this asshole behavior should be investigated. It would be a helpful teaching moment. But a sense of proportion is also for the best. I do have bias. I’d prefer not to lose Franken, as he’s the [wonkiest](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/policy-wonk) member of Congress since Rush Holt. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/279 "2017-11-17T00:37:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The bolded part is not an accurate rendition of Miss Tweed’s story nor an accurate description of the rendition. I also find it interesting that you declare that you described “what he actually did” and immediately follow it up with “I don’t know what happened, you don’t know what happened”. > > Which is it? Did you describe what Mr. Franken did? If you did, how did you describe what he did without knowing what happened? Apologies to **John** , it seems we are in court! And I’m not a juror, I’m on the stand! What is the point that this sloppy internet cross-examination is in service of, exactly? Do I know what happened? Obviously not, that’s why I said that. How did I describe it? I read what she said then paraphrased it. I’m not sure, other than as a continuation of this Roy Mooresque “asking questions” defense, where this is taking us. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/280 "2017-11-17T00:40:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > No. Then again, I’m not in court, right? That question hasn’t come up. If somebody has asked you to convict Al Franken, rest assured I’m against that. OK. What I’m trying to do, just to be clear, is to note that this could be one of those instances where the two people involved had a different sense of what happened. And from her telling of the story, I believe it’s reasonable for him to think he had her consent. It does sound like Frankel behaved, at best, in a boorish manner. I don’t think he should have to resign for that action. > [@](#): > > What I would do, non-hypothetically, is decide not to attack her motivations or pick away at her story to advance a political agenda, when her story is quite credible and demonstrates at the very least that Franken acted in a disgusting way and should apologize, which he did. Choosing not to attack the victim is an option, even if I’m not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. I’m not attacking the victim. But I’ll let you have the last word on this exchange if you wish, before I find myself in a re-education camp with **elucidator**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=15)