# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/301 "2017-11-17T01:40:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s certainly possible that he’s not touching her in the picture. It’s also true that if he’s not touching her, then that’s better than if he were touching her. Consensus on those points. > > Let’s just assume that he’s not touching her. If the same picture were shown to you, and it was Eric Trump doing it, and you heard that the same woman also told the same story about the kiss, where would you come down on that one? You’d still want to know why she was so afraid of a weenie like that that she couldn’t say no, would you; still want to point out his lack of formal authority, and still want to point out the good service he was doing for our boys over there? Since I’ve done none of those things with regards to Mr. Franken I can’t see why I’d do them for Mr. Trump. I can see that I might say “I don’t think he’s touching her in that photo”, tho, if I were to offer an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/302 "2017-11-17T01:41:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So, like **RTFirefly** , you believe that before taking someone’s picture, consent should be gained? Especially, I presume, if that picture is going to portray them negatively or as the butt of a joke? If it involves sexual derision/mockery, or simulated sexual assault? Absolutely. Do you disagree with that? For close friends the rules might be different, depending on the friendship. But they weren’t close friends. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/303 "2017-11-17T01:44:16Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The grope allegation is from the kiss, not the picture. It is? :dubious: > [@madmonk28](#): > > It seems like you are being deliberately obtuse. Do you really not see a problem with using a sleeping woman as an unknowing prop for a sex joke picture? What if Mr. Franken had just made bunny ears behind her head with his fingers? Would that have been wrong, too? Or is it just the sex joke part that you find objectionable? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/304 "2017-11-17T01:44:57Z")
Given that she was wearing a flack jacket, I would say that the lack of depression in the material indicates, to me, at least, that even if there is actual physical contact there, he is a long way from genuinely touching her in any meaningful way. However, she did say that the picture made her feel violated. Even if he did not grope her, the suggestion that he might have made her feel bad. Hence, the technicalities of the picture are not very important in the context of how the subject felt upon viewing it, what it might have been intended to convey and what it actually conveyed to her. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/305 "2017-11-17T01:45:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A stage kiss doesn’t involve tongue, or grabbing the head, etc. She didn’t consent to a tongue in her mouth, and she obviously didn’t consent to her body being used (whether physically touched or not) as an object of sexual derision in the photograph. > > Neither of these things are the end of the world. But they are violations of consent, and the Democratic party should have zero tolerance for violation of consent, IMO. I have seen french kissing on screen. She consented to a kiss. She put no limits on the scene until after. Reasonable limits, certainly, but this was indeed\* “acting” on stage. \* The picture is a diferent story, it is in extremely poor taste,\* at best. \* ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/306 "2017-11-17T01:47:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it involves sexual derision/mockery, or simulated sexual assault? Absolutely. Do you disagree with that? I do not disagree with that. So your position has qualifiers, then? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For close friends the rules might be different, depending on the friendship. But they weren’t close friends. If Mr. Franken had made bunny ears behind her head with his hands, would that be objectionable? What if he had simply sat next to her and the picture was taken? No consent, so that would still be a violation, in your view, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/307 "2017-11-17T01:48:42Z")
the continuation of the puritianism of the americans is very strange. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/308 "2017-11-17T01:49:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It is? :dubious: > What if Mr. Franken had just made bunny ears behind her head with his fingers? Would that have been wrong, too? Or is it just the sex joke part that you find objectionable? I find a lot of it objectionable and so does Franken, who apologized. What I find most objectionable are the entitled men who are helping to maintain a culture of sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/309 "2017-11-17T01:51:20Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the continuation of the puritianism of the americans is very strange. Criminey, there have been a lot of ridiculous comments in this thread, but this one reaches a pinnacle of ridiculousness. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/310 "2017-11-17T01:51:30Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the continuation of the puritianism of the americans is very strange. almost as strange as this post. Can you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/311 "2017-11-17T01:52:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s a dangerous viewpoint. There are many shades of gray in behavior. Couldn’t agree more! Losing a career years in the making has become the de rigueur punishment for any and every PC offense these days, and a more level-headed, proportionate response is long overdue. Behaving in oafish or boorish or moderately sexually inappropriate ways with women is wrong and deserves censure, and punishment by law when appropriate, but figuratively speaking we’ve gotten to the point now where we’re cheerfully and lustfully dishing out death penalties for a whole range of offenses from jaywalking to car theft. Why can’t anything involving social change in this country ever seem to happen with at least a modicum of reason? And speaking of which, I’d suggest a far more effective approach would be to also focus on educating men as to why this kind of behavior is worse than they realize from the woman’s point of view. I think most men don’t have any idea that coming on too strong or groping a woman is or should be that big a deal to the women involved. They know it wouldn’t be a big deal if it happened to them, so in their mind it isn’t or shouldn’t be that big a deal to women either and at worst amounts to little more than a momentary annoyance and most likely soon forgotten about. Men and women simply live in different worlds when it comes to sex, and if you want to change men’s attitudes toward women rather than just moderate their behavior to whatever minimal level they think they can get away with, education is the key. Otherwise it’s like you’re trying to straighten teeth with a hammer and accomplishing very little apart from appearances. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/312 "2017-11-17T01:52:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > almost as strange as this post. Can you elaborate? you have a very puritanical culture. It is strange to observe. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/313 "2017-11-17T01:55:31Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > you have a very puritanical culture. It is strange to observe. Because a large percentage of us feel that it is inappropriate to objectify women? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/314 "2017-11-17T01:56:34Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > you have a very puritanical culture. It is strange to observe. Aren’t you in the Middle East somewhere? I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/315 "2017-11-17T01:56:56Z")
Threads like this are why I never understand when people claim the Dope is a liberal board. If anything, the Dope is an old white guys’ board and the culture you can track the culture passing them by in real time. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/316 "2017-11-17T01:57:07Z")
Y’know, just last week I was thinking: “Liberal poster-boy politician to be exposed in gross & lewd conduct in 3…2…1…” Never expected to be Franken, and I am a big fanboy, oh woe. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > > > It’s certainly possible that he’s not touching her in the picture. It’s also true that if he’s not touching her, then that’s better than if he were touching her. Consensus on those points. > > > > Let’s just assume that he’s not touching her. If the same picture were shown to you, and it was Eric Trump doing it, and you heard that the same woman also told the same story about the kiss, where would you come down on that one? You’d still want to know why she was so afraid of a weenie like that that she couldn’t say no, would you; still want to point out his lack of formal authority, and still want to point out the good service he was doing for our boys over there? > > I’d think, based on the preponderance of the evidence, that Eric was an asshole overgrown fratboy. > > If a conservative comedian did it, I’d cut him a little slack since jokes do misfire now and then. > > If a former comedian/current congressman did it, I’d call for an ethics investigation since I’d like to raise the bar on asshole behavior, including the stuff linked to by Snowboarder Bo. > > If a bunch of women came forward and said something like, “Yeah, this jerk did stuff like this all the time”, I’d check my garage for pitchforks. (Inventory control, you know.) Pretty much same. Although what with the kiss story, if someone’s a lout and a cad you call him a lout and a cad. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I’m fine with some nuance – what Franken did isn’t as bad as what Trump or Moore are accused of doing. But we still should have zero tolerance for it, and it should be anathema, to the point that even Franken’s level of consent-violation should be disqualifying for high office. Irrevokably? Irredeemably? Just to clarify, since there will be many of the opinion that, depending on the offence, sufficient atonement _may_ be made. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/317 "2017-11-17T02:00:16Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Because a large percentage of us feel that it is inappropriate to objectify women? that a large percentage of you treat any sexuality touching on women as some potential victimization and there is the embedded idea of the woman as being damaged and victimized by sexualities… I can assure you, in youth I had experiences here that are called with various harsh words, stupid young men… I do not feel a victim and I find the american attitudes to be very strangely prudish and puritanical. it is strange to observe, its contradictions. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/318 "2017-11-17T02:08:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I submit that “grope” must involve direct and physical contact. Wild-ass shit, I know, but try the idea out for a minute… I don’t think there’s any point, the picture kills him. He was being an ass, and it was caught on film, and now there is this discussion about whether or not she was groped like that means something in terms of political capital. It is hard evidence of lewd behavior that will hang over everything he does. So I suspect he’s all done. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/319 "2017-11-17T02:11:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I do not disagree with that. > > So your position has qualifiers, then?If Mr. Franken had made bunny ears behind her head with his hands, would that be objectionable? What if he had simply sat next to her and the picture was taken? > > No consent, so that would still be a violation, in your view, right? I’m using “violation of consent” as a shorthand for “violation of consent with regards to sexual/intimate use of one’s body and/or presence”. Bunny ears might be objectionable, or maybe not, but it has nothing to do with violation of consent in this context. I’m not sure what your point is, though. Franken didn’t do bunny ears – he groped or pretended to grope her. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/320 "2017-11-17T02:14:19Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Irrevokably? Irredeemably? Just to clarify, since there will be many of the opinion that, depending on the offence, sufficient atonement _may_ be made. I don’t know – maybe there’s a way back with sufficient genuine contrition and long and hard effort to make amends. But in the moment just after the violation of consent is revealed? Yes – zero tolerance, which means resigning/booting. IMO. What’s the problem with this? Why do we need to tolerate this stuff? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=17)