# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/381 "2017-11-17T09:27:54Z")
And now for Franken, since I have taken the time to check up on this situation. Okay, the picture proves nothing. I’ll buy that. But the claim of the forced kiss is a huge problem. It very much is resignation worthy. So, given the evidence up to this point, I would stand by what I said above. If I could, I would not vote for Franken. Hopefully the Democrats would put up another choice. But, if not, given that he’s likely to win, I’d have to vote against him. It sucks voting for someone who I think has the wrong policies, but, unless they are actually a worse person, I can’t see any way around it. Sure, if they’re both harassers, that’s a push. And there are other things the other guy could do that are worse than sexual harassment. We’ve got to send the message that sexual harassment is unacceptable. Admonishing in public but not actually punishing him accomplishes nothing. It’s like the censure for Bill Clinton, which was equally pointless. And if this results in a huge investigation on Capitol Hill and drums people out, great. That’s not a bug, but a feature, just like all the Hollywood types being drummed out right now. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/382 "2017-11-17T09:28:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Meh, even at its worst the national culture of today is still much better than the 1950s world of Jim Crow segregation, routine workplace sexual harassment and sexist discrimination, rape victim shaming, suppression and persecution of gay and transgender people, codes of silence about child sexual abuse, blackballing Jews from institutions, and all the other forms of discrimination and prejudice that were taken for granted back then. > > If you old straight cisgender conservative white males don’t approve of the way that modern liberals are trying to fix these problems, why didn’t you fix them yourselves back before the cultural revolution of the 1960s that you keep complaining about? > > The cultural revolution only caught on in the first place because so much of the existing “establishment” culture was so deeply shitty, especially for those who weren’t old straight cisgender conservative white males. You are quite wrong about this, and I typed up a lengthy post to refute it but decided at the last minute that it would just be too much of a hijack. So I’ll just state that you’re wrong and save the exposition for another time. > [@BigT](#): > > This is literally exactly the opposite of the truth. You should not be so morally bankrupt as to put political stuff, which is debatable, over sexual harassment, which is objectively wrong. > > Sexual harassment is not merely a personal failing. There is a reason these assholes are being driven out of their jobs no matter how good they are at that job. Because none of that matters in the slightest if they are a sexual abuser. See, this right here is how it becomes political. The average conservative would view sexual offenses as a fairly wide range of things calling for an equally wide range of consequence. The left on the other hand tends to go way overboard and behaves as though any offense having to do with sex is the worst thing ever and unquestionably deserving of the loss of entire careers and/or everyone’s vote. I can’t even estimate the number of times I’ve seen, read or heard someone on the left claim that Trump’s over-the-clothes pussy grabbing means that every Republican should completely abandon his or her belief in how the country should be run as a result and instead vote for the candidate who will make Supreme and lower court judicial appointments, propose and champion legislation, issue executive orders, etc., all in direct opposition to the way they feel is best and which will result in what they view as innumerable kinds of harm to the country, simply because Trump bragged about being allowed to put his hands on a woman’s private area because he’s a star. Is such behavior boorish? Yes! Is it offensive? Yes! Would it be cause for charges to be brought should the woman in question want them to be? Certainly! But it is far from bad enough for half the country to completely abandon their principles and vote for a candidate who will seek to do the exact opposite of what they want in running the country, the consequences of which will reverberate for decades. Then there’s also the fact that when it comes to sexual offenses, crickets chirp when it comes to the likes of Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy, etc. This also makes it a political issue, as the ire of the left is exponentially greater when Republican is accused of a more minor offense than when a Democrat is accused of a far greater one. In a nutshell, no, not every sexual offense is unforgivable, and not every sexual offense is worthy of the loss of a career or expulsion from society. It would be amusing if it weren’t so maddening that the same crowd calling for Trump’s head over pussy grabbing were as het up over people who rob, rape, shoot or stab people in the streets or in their own homes. Instead they lobby to restore voting rights to that crowd and do everything they can to get them off via technicalities and lobby for shorter prison sentences and early as possible parole. I’ll guarantee you that getting a knife in your gut or a bullet through your face is far more traumatizing and life-damaging than any less than violent rape sexual offense. So where are your demands that these people be lose their jobs? That they be ostracized from society? That anyone seeking their vote is obviously a deplorable person and should have no role in governing the country? So yeah, politics plays a huge role in how this issue is playing out, and those of us on the right-hand side of the aisle know that, and it’s why we don’t respond the way you want us to…because we know how to assess and respond to the severity of the offense, and because we know what the response has been in the past when one of your own has been the miscreant. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/383 "2017-11-17T09:59:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So, like **RTFirefly** , you believe that before taking someone’s picture, consent should be gained? Like _me?_ I don’t think so. I would thank you to not invent stances that I have supposedly taken, and more to the point, I would thank you for not sharing those inventions with others. (Feel free to make stuff up about me, as long as you keep it in your own head.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/384 "2017-11-17T10:55:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > revolution that took place in this country in the late sixties. And as any good Marxist/Leninist knows, the key to revolution and getting people to join your side is to make them angry about the status quo. And to make them angry about the status quo it’s necessary to create victims and villains. The Angry Right from Nixon/Agnew to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. Good summary! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/385 "2017-11-17T11:42:25Z")
Well, I’ve been an admirer of Franken for a while, firstly as a comedian, and I agree with his political views so there’s that. Now, if his resigning is what it takes to keep things on an even keel, well, whaddayagonnado … but there are miles of differences between Franken and say Moore. I’m sure this has all been hashed over repeatedly in this thread (I wasn’t able to get to every single post here) but I’d like to point out that if this Franken issue had surfaced absent of all the other sexual harassment shit that’s been raining down, it would be an embarrassing blip on the new cycle and nothing more. But the current thing is … the way he’s handled it since has been 180 from all the other accused. Who else stepped up, admitted wrong-doing, apologized and accepted ethics probes into his behavior? So, fine, sucks to be Franken and I kind of figured that this recent wave of women speaking up was going to cast a wide net but that’s probably necessary as well. I can live with all of the fall out if a more enlightened society emerges (or whatever flowery rhetoric we want to go with) but let’s not pretend Al Franken is on a par with child molesters and pussy grabbers and guys who jerk off into potted plants in front of startlets, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/386 "2017-11-17T12:02:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Then why are you commenting at all? I’m curious how many people hate “la bise” but continue to do so because your culture forces it on them. Oh becuase it is a message board and what people do on them is comment? Or have I violated the sacred commandment that no foreigner is to make comments on things american or you get upset? > [@octopus](#): > > That’s perfectly valid. I’ve been punched. I’ve also had my genitals very briefly fondled through my shorts by an older man who thought I was interested when I was a teen. I was not interested. Out of the two experiences I’d rather not be punched. yes indeed. It says very much of the prudish puritanical underlying thinking that an actual physical damage is some how less dangerous than a sexualized touching. It is the value your society and its not examined puritanism that lays the greater emphasis and renders hyper dramatic on anything with any sexual component… I find it strange. Calling for the political death penalty on this person (I know and care not about his politics)… the reactions mixing the idea of the rape with this subject, it all highlights a cultural-psychological overweight you give to anything touching on a sexual aspect, as a dangerous thing. It is strange to me. > [@Kimstu](#): > > You don’t seem to be getting the difference between “a customary greeting ritual that involves touching” and “touching somebody without their consent”. No I get the difference very well. I mocked the american puritianism in that. The over weighted value the american culture puts on some things with a sexual component, it is strange to observe. But it is your culture. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/387 "2017-11-17T12:29:19Z")
Louis CK for one admitted right away that he did the stuff he was accused of. But that is rare . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/388 "2017-11-17T12:43:24Z")
> **[Democrats Missed A Chance To Draw A Line In The Sand On Sexual Misconduct](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-missed-a-chance-to-draw-a-line-in-the-sand-on-sexual-misconduct/)** > > At about 11:15 this morning, an hour or so after Leeann Tweeden published an allegation that Democratic Sen. Al Franken of Minnesota had groped and kissed her w… I think the Democrats are in danger of missing a giant opportunity. I think there’s zero chance Franken can be an effective progressive legislator or advocate going forward, even if his apology was good and accepted. From now on he’s the groping Senator. How does that help the Democrats or their agenda? What, we’re afraid that other gropers or harassers might be afraid to run for office? Or others might be afraid to apologize if they get caught? Fuck em. The concern shouldn’t be about gropers, assaulters, or harassers. The concern should be about other victims and society in general. That not only do we believe credible accusations, but that we will follow up that belief with immediate action. Better the very rare false accusation slips through (in which the accused can come back and be redeemed) than we give the Republicans both another distraction and months of cooperation on an investigation that will be eminently useful to them. There should be a party with zero tolerance for groping and assault and harassment. It’s obviously not the Republicans, and their continued embrace of the groper in chief. That the Democrats are just not as bad isn’t good enough. We must be better, far better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/389 "2017-11-17T12:57:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sorry **iiandyiiii** , it seems pretty clear from the various posters in this thread that the Dems have no desire to be the party of zero tolerance towards sexual harassment. By the way, I find your obvious gleeful posts in all this pretty disgusting considering that you supported and continue to support someone who bragged about groping, in addition to having multiple credible accusations against him. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/390 "2017-11-17T13:09:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Democrats Missed A Chance To Draw A Line In The Sand On Sexual Misconduct | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-missed-a-chance-to-draw-a-line-in-the-sand-on-sexual-misconduct/) > > I think the Democrats are in danger of missing a giant opportunity. I think there’s zero chance Franken can be an effective progressive legislator or advocate going forward, even if his apology was good and accepted. From now on he’s the groping Senator. How does that help the Democrats or their agenda? What, we’re afraid that other gropers or harassers might be afraid to run for office? Or others might be afraid to apologize if they get caught? > > Fuck em. The concern shouldn’t be about gropers, assaulters, or harassers. The concern should be about other victims and society in general. That not only do we believe credible accusations, but that we will follow up that belief with immediate action. Better the very rare false accusation slips through (in which the accused can come back and be redeemed) than we give the Republicans both another distraction and months of cooperation on an investigation that will be eminently useful to them. > > There should be a party with zero tolerance for groping and assault and harassment. It’s obviously not the Republicans, and their continued embrace of the groper in chief. That the Democrats are just not as bad isn’t good enough. We must be better, far better. Well, if the Democrats want to go all the way with this there’s a lot more to do than just get rid of anyone accused of harassment. 1. First and foremost, all Democrats who have had sexual harassment settlements paid out on their behalf by Congress need to be outed. 2. [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) needs to change their name, since the name was coined because they wanted to “move on” from Clinton’s sexual misconduct. If that’s no longer the way progressives do things, it’s time for a name change. 3. Gloria Steinem needs to retire. She was chief apologist among feminists for sexual misconduct by powerful Democrats for years. Just watched an old Real Time where she portrayed Clinton’s conduct as “making love” as opposed to “making war”. She should be asked if she still believes it’s better to have a President who mistreats women vs. one who is decent to them but is a shitty President. 4. The Clintons need to retire and not be invited to campaign for Democrats anymore. 5. The Kennedy men in general need to go into the dustbin of history section of the Democratic Hall of Fame. Of course, this is what Democrats have to do if they want to take an absolutist position on this issue. Alternatively, they could go for a more measured response, only kicking out those whose conduct was egregrious and repeated in the past, and proclaim a zero tolerance policy looking forward. There are a lot of old powerful men in Congress. If the truth came out I suspect 75% of the place would have to resign, and a further 75% of the experienced staffmembers. So we need to get a policy in place here. First, how do you handle unproven accusations? How many do you need before you are assumed guilty? When is there enough evidence to assume it’s just political enemies trying to get rid of somebody? Is an apology for past behavior that wasn’t too egregrious sufficient? Is there a statute of limitations for crimes short of rape or statutory rape? And finally, what kinds of offenses are firing offenses and which are counseling offenses? In 2017, the natural tendency is for Democrats to let their social justice flag fly and take a dogmatic position. While I can get all behind that going forward, I’d note that this is not how Democrats handled their racism problem or their homophobia problem. Kicking out all the pigs at once, regardless of how long ago their offenses were, would go about as badly for them as if they kicked out every racist in 1964. They will find that it’s just not practical, and the other party is simply not going to follow suit. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/391 "2017-11-17T13:16:21Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Oh becuase it is a message board and what people do on them is comment? Or have I violated the sacred commandment that no foreigner is to make comments on things american or you get upset? You have been here how many years? Don’t you know that by now? You are not permitted to say anything, hold any opinion that makes them uncomortable, otherwise you are “anti-American” and the mods will happily slap you down for triggering them. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/392 "2017-11-17T13:26:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the Democrats are in danger of missing a giant opportunity. I think there’s zero chance Franken can be an effective progressive legislator or advocate going forward, even if his apology was good and accepted. From now on he’s the groping Senator. How does that help the Democrats or their agenda? I don’t think there’s a missed opportunity. As we’ve already seen in this thread, nutpickers gonna nutpick. Haters of Dems will find examples of defenders or lukewarm censures of Franken and paint that as the typical Democratic position no matter how rare they are. Which is different from what _should_ be done, which I’m not sure about myself at this point. But I don’t think there can be a political upside from this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/393 "2017-11-17T13:27:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, if the Democrats want to go all the way with this there’s a lot more to do than just get rid of anyone accused of harassment. > > 1. First and foremost, all Democrats who have had sexual harassment settlements paid out on their behalf by Congress need to be outed. > > 2. [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) needs to change their name, since the name was coined because they wanted to “move on” from Clinton’s sexual misconduct. If that’s no longer the way progressives do things, it’s time for a name change. > > 3. Gloria Steinem needs to retire. She was chief apologist among feminists for sexual misconduct by powerful Democrats for years. Just watched an old Real Time where she portrayed Clinton’s conduct as “making love” as opposed to “making war”. She should be asked if she still believes it’s better to have a President who mistreats women vs. one who is decent to them but is a shitty President. > > 4. The Clintons need to retire and not be invited to campaign for Democrats anymore. > > 5. The Kennedy men in general need to go into the dustbin of history section of the Democratic Hall of Fame. I’m fine with all of your suggestions except #5 – no one needs to go away unless they’ve taken part in abuse or hiding abuse. Having the name Kennedy doesn’t mean one is guilty of any of this. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/394 "2017-11-17T13:30:58Z")
I mean Ed and JFK primarily. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/395 "2017-11-17T13:33:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I mean Ed and JFK primarily. This is about violations of consent, not being a horndog – are there credible accusations of violation of consent against Ed or JFK? Driving drunk into a river (or whatever) and having someone die is terrible, but it doesn’t fall into this category of violations of consent and bodily autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/396 "2017-11-17T13:40:05Z")
perhaps, since it’s not the subject of this thread I won’t get into that aspect of things further. But I do wonder if a better approach might be to just say, “Most of us have been guilty of sin in the past. We were stupid and ignorant and thoughtless. We’re going to do better.” If it was my call, Franken should stay unless worse stuff comes out. Roy Moore and Donald Trump should go. And all of those payouts by Congress should be made public. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/397 "2017-11-17T13:42:33Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s a dangerous viewpoint. There are many shades of gray in behavior. Perhaps as many as fifty. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/398 "2017-11-17T13:47:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > perhaps, since it’s not the subject of this thread I won’t get into that aspect of things further. But I do wonder if a better approach might be to just say, “Most of us have been guilty of sin in the past. We were stupid and ignorant and thoughtless. We’re going to do better.” > > If it was my call, Franken should stay unless worse stuff comes out. Roy Moore and Donald Trump should go. And all of those payouts by Congress should be made public. If it all comes out at once, then I could see something like that. A giant “truth and reconciliations” process, with everything revealed and public, no more lies and denials, and clear taking responsibility and apologizing. Hollywood should have a work stoppage for 6 months, IMO, and force this kind of process – something like everyone coming forward, no consequences and reprecussions for accusers, no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt (but abusers should all retire from the industry), etc. Government can’t really stop work, but we should still have something like this. This beast in society (meaning this giant problem of sexual assault and abuse) needs to be addressed head on, not just picked at at the edges. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/399 "2017-11-17T13:55:03Z")
That’s a good idea, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I’m also wondering if rather than rolling back Title IX sexual assault policies on college campuses, we might want to require all professional associations and workplaces, including Congress, to adopt similar processes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/400 "2017-11-17T13:56:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it all comes out at once, then I could see something like that. A giant “truth and reconciliations” process, with everything revealed and public, no more lies and denials, and clear taking responsibility and apologizing. Hollywood should have a work stoppage for 6 months, IMO, and force this kind of process – something like everyone coming forward, no consequences and reprecussions for accusers, no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt (but abusers should all retire from the industry), etc. Government can’t really stop work, but we should still have something like this. This beast in society (meaning this giant problem of sexual assault and abuse) needs to be addressed head on, not just picked at at the edges. Wait–no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt? I’m not at all convinced that’s a reasonable approach. It’s gonna come across like men in power are above the law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=21)