# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/401 "2017-11-17T14:06:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wait–no criminal or civil consequences for admitting guilt? I’m not at all convinced that’s a reasonable approach. It’s gonna come across like men in power are above the law. Just a thought; maybe it’s a bad idea. But something needs to happen. I think getting it all out in the open so we can move forward with clear guidelines and rules might be more important than punishing all evildoers. In my understanding and experience of talking with victims, being allowed to come forward and tell their story with no repercussions, and preventing future abuse, is even more important (and maybe far more important) than actual criminal penalties for their abusers. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/402 "2017-11-17T14:12:23Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What the hell, man? I’m starting to worry that when this is all over, the Capitol will be empty except for one guy with a floor polisher, and the only person left in Hollywood will be like, Kirk Cameron or some shit. And the world will be a better place. But seriously, we’ve got to find something to take down Kirk Cameron too. Maybe something with a floor polisher? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/403 "2017-11-17T14:15:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Democrats Missed A Chance To Draw A Line In The Sand On Sexual Misconduct | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-missed-a-chance-to-draw-a-line-in-the-sand-on-sexual-misconduct/) > > I think the Democrats are in danger of missing a giant opportunity. I think there’s zero chance Franken can be an effective progressive legislator or advocate going forward, even if his apology was good and accepted. From now on he’s the groping Senator. How does that help the Democrats or their agenda? What, we’re afraid that other gropers or harassers might be afraid to run for office? Or others might be afraid to apologize if they get caught? > > Fuck em. The concern shouldn’t be about gropers, assaulters, or harassers. The concern should be about other victims and society in general. That not only do we believe credible accusations, but that we will follow up that belief with immediate action. Better the very rare false accusation slips through (in which the accused can come back and be redeemed) than we give the Republicans both another distraction and months of cooperation on an investigation that will be eminently useful to them. > > There should be a party with zero tolerance for groping and assault and harassment. It’s obviously not the Republicans, and their continued embrace of the groper in chief. That the Democrats are just not as bad isn’t good enough. We must be better, far better. Drawing a line in the sand on sexual misconduct is the guaranteed path to failure. If you want to make men less interested in voting for the Democratic party, there is no better way to do that than lumping Franken in with CK, Moore, and Weinstein. Franken, having failed to understand his relationship with Tweeden, pushed her into a kiss and feigned groping in a picture. Once he learned how his behavior actually affected her, he apologized thoroughly and welcomed an ethics probe. My guess is that a huge percentage of men have made these sorts of mistakes at various times in their lives and they are not the result of some compulsion to hurt women. If given the chance they would apologize for their behavior and attempt to make amends. If you want to make them feel like they aren’t much different than somebody like Weinstein or CK, then go right ahead and demand the puritanism. I am sure the Republican party will take those who feel ostracized by this “line in the sand”. Of course, my opinion would be totally different on Franken if I thought that photo actually showed him grabbing her breasts or if the context of the groping and kiss was something where it couldn’t be ambiguous or if his response was like Trump’s or Weinstein or CK’s. There can be a zero-tolerance policy on harassment and sexual assault, but it needs to include giving milder offenses a chance to be apologized for. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/404 "2017-11-17T14:19:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not going to argue the general case, as I suppose there are some instances where that might be true. But not this one. She knew she was doing a scene with him where they kiss. There was going to be a kiss as soon as she agreed to do the scene. Rehearsing scenes is not some crazy, unheard of behavior. They were not in some dark alley. No, she had agency to refuse, but she said “OK”. That’s true. But it puts a different spin on his going further in tongue kissing. Because if it was obvious that she was uncomfortable with the entire kiss altogether, then there’s that much less room for him to decide to make a much more sexual kiss out of it than the bare minimum “required” for the rehearsal. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > 11 states, per footnote #35. > > [Evan McMullin - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_McMullin) Right. IOW, not enough to win. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you think there’s no difference between booting a violator-of-consent and not booting a violator-of-consent? I think there’s a difference, and a difference in how that looks, especially in the long term. Of course there’s a difference. But you can’t legitimately differentiate between two parties based on how one acts in a low-cost situation and how the other acts in a high-cost situation. As for “how that looks”, maybe. One big problem the Democrats will have here is that they’ve lionized Bill Clinton all these years. I would expect if the Democrats make too much of trying to differentiate themselves in this manner, that good old Bill will come in for some more unwanted publicity from partisan circles. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/405 "2017-11-17T14:20:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Drawing a line in the sand on sexual misconduct is the guaranteed path to failure. > > If you want to make men less interested in voting for the Democratic party, there is no better way to do that than lumping Franken in with CK, Moore, and Weinstein. Franken, having failed to understand his relationship with Tweeden, pushed her into a kiss and feigned groping in a picture. Once he learned how his behavior actually affected her, he apologized thoroughly and welcomed an ethics probe. > > My guess is that a huge percentage of men have made these sorts of mistakes at various times in their lives and they are not the result of some compulsion to hurt women. If given the chance they would apologize for their behavior and attempt to make amends. If you want to make them feel like they aren’t much different than somebody like Weinstein or CK, then go right ahead and demand the puritanism. I am sure the Republican party will take those who feel ostracized by this “line in the sand”. > > Of course, my opinion would be totally different on Franken if I thought that photo actually showed him grabbing her breasts or if the context of the groping and kiss was something where it couldn’t be ambiguous or if his response was like Trump’s or Weinstein or CK’s. > > There can be a zero-tolerance policy on harassment and sexual assault, but it needs to include giving milder offenses a chance to be apologized for. I think this is downplaying and minimizing Franken’s offense. He forced a tongue kiss on her during what was supposed to be a rehearsal. That’s a violation of consent. Then he used her body (whether he touched or just pretended to) as a source of amusement and entertainment in the photograph, again violating her consent. That’s pretty bad. I don’t see how Franken staying a Senator helps anyone but Franken and the Republicans, who will always have a “what about Franken?” to point to the next time credible accusations are leveled at a Republican, along with a long investigation to serve as a distraction to whatever other shit they want to do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/406 "2017-11-17T14:24:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course there’s a difference. But you can’t legitimately differentiate between two parties based on how one acts in a low-cost situation and how the other acts in a high-cost situation. I think you can. Not 1-to-1, perhaps, but 1-to-something. An easy good action is still better than the easy bad action; making the right choice is better than the wrong choice, even when the right choice in one circumstance is easier than the other. > [@](#): > > As for “how that looks”, maybe. One big problem the Democrats will have here is that they’ve lionized Bill Clinton all these years. I would expect if the Democrats make too much of trying to differentiate themselves in this manner, that good old Bill will come in for some more unwanted publicity from partisan circles. Yes, Clinton could and should go down (in terms of his reputation) in my proposed strategy. This will be a painful process, but it’s highly necessary, IMO. This is just an utterly enormous problem in society. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/407 "2017-11-17T14:26:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see how Franken staying a Senator helps anyone but Franken and the Republicans, who will always have a “what about Franken?” to point to the next time credible accusations are leveled at a Republican Like I said before, _there already will be doing that_. They’re still echoing that same old “whatabout Clinton?” line 20 or so years after it was politically relevant. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/408 "2017-11-17T14:27:36Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Like I said before, _there already will be doing that_. They’re still echoing that same old “whatabout Clinton?” line 20 or so years after it was politically relevant. It’s different when they’re actually in office. It’s a lot harder to be the “anti-sexual-assault” party if we tolerate a little bit of sexual assault in our ranks. Doing the right thing matters, even if it’s just a little bit now. And it will matter more later. Imagine if the Democrats have unanimously risen against Clinton and gotten him to resign due to the credible allegations of sexual assault (not the Lewinsky stuff, but the non-consensual stuff). Things would be pretty different now in terms of politics and sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/409 "2017-11-17T14:28:09Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > But seriously, we’ve got to find something to take down Kirk Cameron too. He’s got a real thing for bananas, so— I’m sure the photos are out there, somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/410 "2017-11-17T14:28:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you can. Not 1-to-1, perhaps, but 1-to-something. An easy good action is still better than the easy bad action; making the right choice is better than the wrong choice, even when the right choice in one circumstance is easier than the other. OK. Not going to keep repeating myself. > [@](#): > > Yes, Clinton could and should go down (in terms of his reputation) in my proposed strategy. This will be a painful process, but it’s highly necessary, IMO. OK, but the point is that just ousting Franken is not going to do it for you. > [@Ludovic](#): > > Like I said before, _there already will be doing that_. They’re still echoing that same old “whatabout Clinton?” line 20 or so years after it was politically relevant. It’s relevant. Clinton has been a very respected Democratic elder statesman and is one to this day. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/411 "2017-11-17T14:29:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but the point is that just ousting Franken is not going to do it for you. Yes, agreed. That would just be one insufficient by itself, but still necessary, part of what needs to be done, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/412 "2017-11-17T14:32:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just a thought; maybe it’s a bad idea. But something needs to happen. I think getting it all out in the open so we can move forward with clear guidelines and rules might be more important than punishing all evildoers. In my understanding and experience of talking with victims, being allowed to come forward and tell their story with no repercussions, and preventing future abuse, is even more important (and maybe far more important) than actual criminal penalties for their abusers. I was toying with starting a thread like that in GD. I’m not in favor of blanket amnesty, but some sort of point system, and if you’re under the “cutoff point”, you can come clean, do penance, and go forth and sin no more. Points would be something like: - Number of accusers (the more accusers, the more points) - How long ago? (O points if it was 50 years ago, maximum points if it was this year) - Did it involve minors? - What was the nature of the act (high points for rape, low points of propositioning) - etc. And remember, it’s like golf. High scores are BAD!!! But I’m not sure there is a way of NOT turning this into witch trials or whatnot. Practically speaking, I think we are just going to have to let this play out in all its messiness. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/413 "2017-11-17T14:40:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … Then he used her body (whether he touched or just pretended to) as a source of amusement and entertainment in the photograph, again violating her consent. > > . of course, for the americans it must have a triple signed form twenty-seven B stroke six or the consent for any kind of thing that has a touch on the dangers of anything that could have the sexual content. but a punch in the face, it is quite all right without the form not as damaging. funny american puritanism. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/414 "2017-11-17T14:41:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You have been here how many years? Don’t you know that by now? You are not permitted to say anything, hold any opinion that makes them uncomortable, otherwise you are “anti-American” and the mods will happily slap you down for triggering them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/415 "2017-11-17T14:42:28Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > of course, for the americans it must have a triple signed form twenty-seven B stroke six or the consent for any kind of thing that has a touch on the dangers of anything that could have the sexual content. > > but a punch in the face, it is quite all right without the form not as damaging. > > funny american puritanism. No, just requires consent. Non-sexual violence is also a bad thing, but it’s in a different category, and not related to this awful problem we have of minimizing sexual abuse, protecting abusers, and attacking accusers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/416 "2017-11-17T14:43:08Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > of course, for the americans it must have a triple signed form twenty-seven B stroke six or the consent for any kind of thing that has a touch on the dangers of anything that could have the sexual content. > > but a punch in the face, it is quite all right without the form not as damaging. > > funny american puritanism. We’re exceptional. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/417 "2017-11-17T14:47:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think this is downplaying and minimizing Franken’s offense. He forced a tongue kiss on her during what was supposed to be a rehearsal. That’s a violation of consent. I’m repeating the words used by Tweeden and Franken. You are exaggerating the offense. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then he used her body (whether he touched or just pretended to) as a source of amusement and entertainment in the photograph, again violating her consent. So should we find all the Democratic officeholders who have looked at a woman’s ass? I mean if you’ve looked at 10 women’s asses then it’s probably a guarantee you’ve used a woman’s body for entertainment while violating her consent. That’s pretty bad! > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see how Franken staying a Senator helps anyone but Franken and the Republicans, who will always have a “what about Franken?” to point to the next time credible accusations are leveled at a Republican, along with a long investigation to serve as a distraction to whatever other shit they want to do. Worrying about what the Republicans might say about Franken or any of their other bugbears is loser thinking. The Democrats have messaging problems, but preventing this or that politician from running because of what the Republicans might say is, thankfully, not one of them. btw, **Ramira** , you’re awesome and I enjoy reading what you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/418 "2017-11-17T14:51:14Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I’m repeating the words used by Tweeden and Franken. You are exaggerating the offense. No, I’m also using her words – he stuck his tongue in her mouth. > [@](#): > > So should we find all the Democratic officeholders who have looked at a woman’s ass? I mean if you’ve looked at 10 women’s asses then it’s probably a guarantee you’ve used a woman’s body for entertainment while violating her consent. > > That’s pretty bad! If they took pictures staring at a woman’s ass, mugging for the camera, without her consent, then yes. That’s using a woman’s body as a prop for comedy, and isn’t okay without their consent. > [@](#): > > Worrying about what the Republicans might say about Franken or any of their other bugbears is loser thinking. The Democrats have messaging problems, but preventing this or that politician from running because of what the Republicans might say is, thankfully, not one of them. I don’t care about “loser thinking” or whatever. I care about being the party against sexual assault, and showing it. If we don’t boot assaulters and gropers and violators of consent, then we’re not showing it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/419 "2017-11-17T14:52:14Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Worrying about what the Republicans might say about Franken or any of their other bugbears is loser thinking. I can’t agree more with this. I cringe every time someone brings up the idea that “we can’t do X because the mean ol’ Republicans will jump all over it and smear us”. “Loser thinking” is exactly right. I like that! Save the outrage for someone who has committed a truly egregious sin, and don’t lets create a sacrificial lamb just because some pervy, GOP creep in Alabama was chasing after and trying to get into the skirts of underage girls for years and years. N.B.: Franken needs to com clean if there are any other skeletons in the closet, though. That could change the calculus. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/420 "2017-11-17T14:56:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Save the outrage for someone who has committed a truly egregious sin, and don’t lets create a sacrificial lamb just because some pervy, GOP creep in Alabama was chasing after and trying to get into the skirts of underage girls for years and years. So a little bit of sexual assault is tolerable? A little bit of violation of consent? It’s not the end of the world, and it’s not rape. But that doesn’t mean we have to tolerate it among our highest office-holders. Senator isn’t office manager – it’s one of the highest positions in the country. Our standards should be really, really high… and it seems to me that putting the amount of sexual assault and violation of consent that we allow as “zero”, and not “a tiny bit 11 years ago”, isn’t setting the bar particularly high. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=22)