# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Arrogantly\_Ignorant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Arrogantly\_Ignorant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrogantly_Ignorant)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/521 "2017-11-17T19:51:13Z")
I just want to object to the idea (stated by **Hurricaine Ditka** in post #432 that Democrats belief Moore should not be a Senator is somehow weakened if they don’t also believe Franken should resign. That’s a blatant false equivalence; the only commonality between the two incidents is that they were sexual in nature. Other than that, they are completely different. There have been multiple accusations against Moore. Moore’s conduct involved touching of genitalia in some cases. Moore was a Deputy District Attorney in his 30s at the time and most of his victims were 18 or younger. Circumstances matter. What Franken did was wrong, but it does not compare to Moore’s situation. That said, if the voters of Alabama elect him with eyes wide open then I don’t think the Senate should expel him unless new information comes to light. I hope they enjoy the stench. Something I want to bring up is that, in some ways, I find Franken’s actions with Melanie Morgan to be far more troubling. Taking her story at face value, Franken comes across as unhinged. There’s passion and then there’s obsession. Not many people (in general) seem to be talking about that though. I don’t think it’s a sufficient reason for him to resign over, but I do think it should be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/522 "2017-11-17T19:58:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m now very curious: did you vote for Bill Clinton? I did, twice. And I’m kinda curious about what process of alchemy got us to the point of having already known that Clinton’s committed sexual assault or harassment. The point at which we, the general public, first came to know this seems to be missing from the chronology. I would note that the hunters of the President during the 1990s were aware of Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey, because so was everyone else. But even they didn’t think their claims belonged front and center, instead choosing to focus on Bill Clinton’s quite consensual (if sleazy) relationship with Monica Lewinsky once that story broke. And they basically did nothing with Juanita Broaddrick’s allegations once they became known. So I think where we left it at the end of the 1990s was that there was probably no ‘there’ there, since even the Clinton-haters (who were legion, and well-funded too) more or less let them drop. But now there seems to be a prevailing assumption that yes, we knew there **was** substance to one or more of these women’s claims. And I want to know: when and how did this happen? What deep dive into the forgotten details of the 1990s led to this change of assumptions? Or did the hive mind just decide it one day? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/523 "2017-11-17T20:05:31Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Again, what point are you making? Do you think that **Richard Parker** was saying that we should abandon police and courts? The point is obvious. Crime and punishment are best reserved, when possible, for the proper institutions. Not social media fueled vigilante mobs. If the victim desires she can go to the police or sue for damages. Secondly, the punishment needs to fit the actual crime. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Agreed. However, having standards is not ridiculous, and having a standard that says “no sexual assaulters/gropers/violators-of-consent” seems pretty damn reasonable to me. Doesn’t seem reasonable to me. I’m even for felons being able to run after they’ve completed their sentence. I believe in redemption and forgiveness. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve been punched before. Not that big a deal. I haven’t had a forced kiss, but it sounds a lot worse. A punch can kill you. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, I’ve been both sucker punched and groped. I’m heterosexual and male. The man who groped me was a man. I sure the hell didn’t consent because nothing was asked. Out of the two experiences if I had to endure them daily I’d take the groping. Out of the two experiences if I could have one of the people go to jail for a few years it would be the person who punched me when I was unaware. Why? The groping, even though I was underage, I understood to be sort of a sexual advance that while undesired was meant as a proposition. I didn’t feel threatened I was surprised and then I left the situation. The sucker punch actually hurt and left my face marked for awhile. I had no idea what was happening and I was really worried about how I was going to extricate myself from the situation. Furthermore the potential damage was far greater. If I fell and hit my head on the concrete that can be brain damage or worse. Having my genitals touched through my shorts didn’t result in any damage. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/524 "2017-11-17T20:07:54Z")
I am on the fence. 1. Who cares is the victim is a right winger? She is obviously not just inventing all this. 2. This does not strike me as the greatest of ethical violations. Perhaps a censure would be appropriate? 3. Gotta wait and see if it turns out this is a pattern. If so, forget it. 4. Holy crap, that photo makes him look awful and disgusting!! He might as well be warming his hands at a bonfire he set of his career. Get used to that awful picture, it is going to be coming up forever. Way to fuck up, Franken! :mad: If he does get run out for this, I will be more “you should not be this kind of dumbass” than railing against the injustice of it all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/525 "2017-11-17T20:12:48Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m still trying to get an answer. Are folk advocating that ANY public official is unfit for office, whatever their politics, if they have been accused of: > > -unwanted kissing/groping? > -consensual sex with a subordinate? > -some type of inappropriate remarks? I would disagree with that notion. There is - and I think most people know it, but we’re in a state of tension right now that I don’t necessarily think is a bad thing - a sliding scale of sexual crime, just as there is a sliding scale of assault or theft. What Franken is alleged to have done is not nearly as bad as what Bill O’Reilly is alleged to have done, and in turn Harvey Weinstein has O’Reilly beaten by a mile. One or two offenses of a relatively misdemeaor-kind-variety are on thing. Being a serial rapist is quite something else. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/526 "2017-11-17T20:17:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The point is obvious. Crime and punishment are best reserved, when possible, for the proper institutions. Not social media fueled vigilante mobs. If the victim desires she can go to the police or sue for damages. Secondly, the punishment needs to fit the actual crime. Sure, OK. But I don’t see how that point is connected to anything anyone here has been calling for. “Franken should resign” is vigilantism, is what you’re saying? Is that the kind of metric you apply to everyone’s opinion about everything? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/527 "2017-11-17T20:19:53Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Sure, OK. But I don’t see how that point is connected to anything anyone here has been calling for. > > “Franken should resign” is vigilantism, is what you’re saying? Is that the kind of metric you apply to everyone’s opinion about everything? No. Are you reading the whole thread? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/528 "2017-11-17T20:22:11Z")
Yes. I’m going to need a little more guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/529 "2017-11-17T20:23:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No. Are you reading the whole thread? I for one can’t tell what the hell you’re calling for, or against. Legal consequences should be decided by legal mechanisms, of course. But we’re not talking about legal consequences, we’re talking about political consequences and social consequences. And those should be decided by political and social mechanisms, of course. Do you object to that? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/530 "2017-11-17T20:28:02Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Franken is undeniably guilty of sexual harassment, and if this one set of accusations is the extent of it, then his apology, her acceptance, and an ethics investigation seem like a proportionate response. If there are other accusers to come forward, then it goes from a comedian doing something dumb on impulse (due to our pervasive culture that devalues women’s consent) to a serial predator, and resignation is called for. I say harassment because the photo qualifies as that, since there does not appear to be physical contact. > > I believe Tweeden, despite the rumblings in some quarters that the photographer or Franken’s military escort might, maybe, possibly come forward with a different account of events. If and when they DO come forward, maybe that will change things. > > I think that, should the Senate investigation turn up nothing more, and if he is allowed to remain in the Senate, he should retire in 2020 and let someone else run for his seat. If he truly believes in progressive causes, he can find other ways to help them. > > Lastly, I think Franken, the Democrats, and public figures in general should use this to start making people aware of the consent problem our culture has and start changing that. …I can find nothing to disagree with in the entirety of this post. No wonder everybody ignored it. 😃 Nicely put. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/531 "2017-11-17T20:37:04Z")
When it comes to politics can anyone trust anything? Al Franken might be the worst person on earth and guilty as charged, but when the sole accuser is an attention-seeking, tea-party shithead like Leann Tweeden, I’m extremely skeptical. I was aware of Tweeden long before this accusation. Her credibility is sorely lacking and coming smack in the middle of the Moore scandal…let’s just say a shout out for Hannity isn’t beyond the pale. For all the republicans bleating about Franken: acknowledge that your so-called president is a serial sexual-harasser and apologize to Anita Hill, and then I’ll take your “concerns” seriously. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/532 "2017-11-17T20:41:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Doesn’t seem reasonable to me. I’m even for felons being able to run after they’ve completed their sentence. I believe in redemption and forgiveness. You haven’t said why it’s not reasonable, unless you think any standards of behavior are unreasonable. Is there any past behavior that you would find disqualifying for political office (for your own vote, I mean)? If so, then the only thing we disagree on is what behavior should be disqualifying. > [@](#): > > A punch can kill you. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, I’ve been both sucker punched and groped. I’m heterosexual and male. The man who groped me was a man. I sure the hell didn’t consent because nothing was asked. > > Out of the two experiences if I had to endure them daily I’d take the groping. Out of the two experiences if I could have one of the people go to jail for a few years it would be the person who punched me when I was unaware. > > Why? The groping, even though I was underage, I understood to be sort of a sexual advance that while undesired was meant as a proposition. I didn’t feel threatened I was surprised and then I left the situation. The sucker punch actually hurt and left my face marked for awhile. I had no idea what was happening and I was really worried about how I was going to extricate myself from the situation. > > Furthermore the potential damage was far greater. If I fell and hit my head on the concrete that can be brain damage or worse. Having my genitals touched through my shorts didn’t result in any damage. I’d prefer to be assaulted than killed, if that’s the choice. But this is a rather silly argument. People are going to feel differently based on their own experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/533 "2017-11-17T20:44:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d prefer to be assaulted than killed, if that’s the choice. But this is a rather silly argument. People are going to feel differently based on their own experiences. Indeed. One of the first people I ever talked with about when she was raped told me quite matter-of-factly that she’d decided if she were ever attacked again that she’d fight to the death, not because she expected to win such a fight, but because she’d rather die that go through that experience again. Mileage obviously varies, but I don’t think her feelings are unique. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/534 "2017-11-17T21:12:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I for one can’t tell what the hell you’re calling for, or against. Read more carefully then. > [@](#): > > Legal consequences should be decided by legal mechanisms, of course. But we’re not talking about legal consequences, we’re talking about political consequences and social consequences. And those should be decided by political and social mechanisms, of course. Do you object to that? To some degree yes I do. At some point people need to mind their own business and not jump on the “oh I’m so outraged” Internet bandwagon which unnecessarily and dangerously amplifies things. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/535 "2017-11-17T21:15:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > To some degree yes I do. At some point people need to mind their own business and not jump on the “oh I’m so outraged” Internet bandwagon which unnecessarily and dangerously amplifies things. In a democracy, ‘our own business’ includes the operation and workings of that democracy. We’re minding our own business already, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/536 "2017-11-17T21:24:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d prefer to be assaulted than killed, if that’s the choice. But this is a rather silly argument. People are going to feel differently based on their own experiences. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. One of the first people I ever talked with about when she was raped told me quite matter-of-factly that she’d decided if she were ever attacked again that she’d fight to the death, not because she expected to win such a fight, but because she’d rather die that go through that experience again. > > Mileage obviously varies, but I don’t think her feelings are unique. Also, whether or not there’s some kind of imbalance between the way assaults and sexual assaults are treated because of puritanical views about chastity, that’s not the reason one’s a bigger deal in the news than the other. Punching someone in the face out of nowhere: you get in big trouble for that. If Franken had hit some radio host with a two-piece suckerpunch combo for no reason 11 years ago, that would be a big problem. It would be unhinged behavior, and probably charged criminally. It’s not a helpful comparison to demonstrate that we should care less about whether he kissed somebody without consent 11 years ago. That was actually the point of the post **octopus** originally responded to when he made the point that he refuses to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/537 "2017-11-17T21:26:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I would disagree with that notion. > > There is - and I think most people know it, but we’re in a state of tension right now that I don’t necessarily think is a bad thing - a sliding scale of sexual crime, just as there is a sliding scale of assault or theft. What Franken is alleged to have done is not nearly as bad as what Bill O’Reilly is alleged to have done, and in turn Harvey Weinstein has O’Reilly beaten by a mile. > > One or two offenses of a relatively misdemeaor-kind-variety are on thing. Being a serial rapist is quite something else. Thank you. You are the only person who has responded to my questions. I’m really confounded that so many folk would think Franken’s actions warranted that he resign/be removed. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/538 "2017-11-17T21:32:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > At some point people need to mind their own business and not jump on the “oh I’m so outraged” Internet bandwagon which unnecessarily and dangerously amplifies things. When you feel that point in time has come, maybe you can be the one to kick things off. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/539 "2017-11-17T21:37:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > When you feel that point in time has come, maybe you can be the one to kick things off. Hiyo! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/540 "2017-11-17T22:00:20Z")
> [@Arrogantly\_Ignorant](#): > > I just want to object to the idea (stated by **Hurricaine Ditka** in post #432 that Democrats belief Moore should not be a Senator is somehow weakened if they don’t also believe Franken should resign. That’s a blatant false equivalence; the only commonality between the two incidents is that they were sexual in nature. Other than that, they are completely different. There have been multiple accusations against Moore. Moore’s conduct involved touching of genitalia in some cases. Moore was a Deputy District Attorney in his 30s at the time and most of his victims were 18 or younger. Circumstances matter. What Franken did was wrong, but it does not compare to Moore’s situation. What we know now: Roy Moore has multiple accusers; many of their accounts are supported by the fact that they spoke or wrote about the alleged abuse at the time it happened; the accusations vary but some (as the poster quoted above noted) include touching of genitalia. Donald Trump has multiple accusers; many of their accounts are supported by the fact that they spoke or wrote about the alleged abuse at the time it happened; the accusations vary but some include touching of genitalia.\* Al Franken has, so far, one accuser. She has not claimed to have spoken or written about the alleged abuse at the time it happened. The accusations are: groping (which apparently consisted of a photo taken in the presence of at least one third party, in which it’s not clear that physical touching took place) and an agreed-to kiss that allegedly included not-agreed-to elements such as a tongue. Those accusations against Franken should be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly. If the accuser’s account is borne out in every detail, Franken should, at the least, be censured. However, it seems safe to say that anyone advocating for the resignation of Franken without also calling for the resignation of Trump and the withdrawal from candidacy of Moore, is a partisan hypocrite. \*This list of Trump’s accusers is more than a year old, but it lays out the cases that had come forward by that time quite clearly. Several include Trump groping genital areas. > **[Here's The List Of Women Who Accused Donald Trump Of Sexual Misconduct](https://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct)** > > Sexual allegations against Donald Trump have come out in a torrent. Here is a list of who has accused Trump of what and when. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=28)