# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/581 "2017-11-18T02:30:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Al Franken is still, in many ways, an attractive moderate progressive. He’s not a racist. He’s not a misogynist. He’s not a misogynist? How do you figure? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/582 "2017-11-18T02:44:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If my “credibility determination” included the opinion that because I have doubts about Tweeden’s story, there should therefore be no investigation of Franken’s conduct—IF I’d made that argument, then you’d have grounds for your evident indignation. If you didn’t previously know that delays in reporting and failure to report because of fear of career and reputational harm – which are the reasons you’ve decided she isn’t credible – are not indicators of poor credibility when it comes to an assault victim’s allegations, now you do know. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/583 "2017-11-18T02:48:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The process I am speaking out about is uncontrollable and the messages and opinions that resonate online and other forms of mass media are the ones with the least nuance. That’s dangerous for society. How so? > [@octopus](#): > > Here is something that the Europeans are doing that I find to be very wise in many ways. [Right to be forgotten - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten) I’ll have to digest that in stages, it’s new to me. It still seems to be on the opposite side of wanting more transparency and accountability. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/584 "2017-11-18T02:57:32Z")
This is a long thread and I apologize for posting without having read all of it so sorry if the question has been asked and answered - The picture - _to me_ it looks more like him _posing to appear as if_ he was grabbing her breasts thinking that such was a funny picture but not actually touching her, and I think that unless she was drugged he would have been afraid to even if he had wanted to as she likely would have woken up. If so it is not something I think is funny. Something that was indeed exploitive. It was wrong to do. But not quite the same as molestation. Not in the same ballpark as what Moore is accused of, or even as Trump’s admitted “grabbing her pussy.” _If so_ the person who made a living trying to be funny and sometimes not hitting the mark and sometimes making poor choices in the effort has developed a different set of priorities over the years. I do not think he should resign over this. And I suspect that f he continues to do his job in the Senate he will be re-elected next time. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/585 "2017-11-18T03:22:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, drunk driving and leaving someone to die is in a different category. A far _ **worse** _ category. This is what Ramira is rightfully critiquing as a pathology of Puritanism. Don’t you find it odd that you admit that given the choice between a hard punch to the face and a forced kiss you choose the punch? Not to mention, drunk driving is a crime, and drunk driving that results in injury or death is (in some states, I think) a felony. It’s also one of those crimes that is (properly) regarded more seriously today than it was back in 1969. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/586 "2017-11-18T03:28:24Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > But perhaps it is uniquely in my partially latin culture that we experience some ambiguity even in ourselves as what is the consent, or I am perhaps the strange person who has not experienced this idea as black and white… To be clear, ‘la bise’ (I’ve lived in Francophone places before) is very different from what Al Franken is alleged to have done (which amusingly enough is called French kissing in the united states, but that’s a discussion for another time…) I don’t disagree with you that America has a strangely schizophrenic approach to sex (and alcohol too, probably not coincidentally), but I just don’t think this is a great example of it. Sticking your tongue down the throat of someone who is a fellow actor and supposed to be rehearsing a scene involving a _fictional_ kiss is at best kind of gross and tasteless, I think most 16-year olds should know that, let alone someone who’s Franken’s age. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/587 "2017-11-18T04:06:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The picture - _to me_ it looks more like him _posing to appear as if_ he was grabbing her breasts thinking that such was a funny picture but not actually touching her Agree. He’s clearly not touching her but miming doing so with his hands not making contact. Juvenile as hell and not funny, but “groping”? No. No opinion about the kiss part of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/588 "2017-11-18T04:57:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It sounds to me like Tweeden told her husband about it pretty much as soon as she found out about the photo, which because she was asleep at the time, was some time after the actual incident. Which is exactly what I said: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > The investigation would certainly have been more conclusive had Tweeden told someone immediately about the kiss allegation. **She didn’t know about the photo immediately and obviously couldn’t have told anyone about it.** > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s your understanding of “when it happened” for Trump’s, Moore’s, and Franken’s accusers? Does that mean it has to be in the moment it happens? Same day? Same week? It may be honest confusion on the part of Trump and Moore defenders, but the attempt to conflate ‘reporting the incident’ with ‘speaking or writing about the incident’ comes across as a purely cynical tactic. Women don’t _report_ incidents for a wide variety of reasons as has been discussed quite a bit in this thread: fear of career consequences; fear of attacks on reputation; fear of being ridiculed; even fear of being the object of further violence. Many women are reporting years-old or even decades-old incidents now (in late 2017) _because it has become safer to do so_, after all the public attention to the previously-secret activities of Bill Cosby, Bill O’Reilly, Roger Ailes, Harvey Weinstein, etc. That’s something quite different from what I’ve been discussing in my posts in this thread. I’ve been discussing talking to a friend or relative or pastor, or writing in a journal or diary, or otherwise doing something at the time (in days or weeks, usually) that creates a form of evidence. The evidence may or may not rise to the level of proof. But it creates _support_ for any allegations that may later be made publicly. In the case of Leeann Tweeden, I’ve been noting that she doesn’t seem to have mentioned or noted anything about the alleged misconduct by Franken during the kiss she’d agreed to. She may not have been able to tell her husband about the photo until weeks after it was taken (because, as I mentioned in my earlier post, she hadn’t known the photo existed). _But that’s not true of the kiss “tongue” accusation._ There was no delay in her finding out that this alleged abuse had occurred. She would have known instantly that it had occurred. She could easily have said to one of more of the other women on that USO tour (Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, etc.), ‘watch out for Franken, he’s a real creep’ or something similar. She could have spoken to her husband on the phone and said ‘I can’t wait for this to be over, one of the men here has been a real jerk’ or such. She could have mentioned the incident in a letter or journal. Apparently that didn’t happen. It doesn’t mean that she’s making up the tongue accusation (or even exaggerating it)–it may have happened exactly the way she said. But there’s no doubt that the absence of contemporary corroboration of some kind doesn’t _help_ her credibility. > [@elucidator](#): > > Your wording could imply a suspicion that she has been _prevented_ from telling her story. Is that your intent? No snark intended, straight question. No, I have no suspicion that she’s been prevented from telling her story. I’m just saying that _more_ of her story would emerge from an investigation, than has emerged from the few interviews she’s done so far. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/589 "2017-11-18T05:08:38Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > of course, for the americans it must have a triple signed form twenty-seven B stroke six or the consent for any kind of thing that has a touch on the dangers of anything that could have the sexual content. > > but a punch in the face, it is quite all right without the form not as damaging. > > funny american puritanism. Maybe you need to have more conversations with females, rather than just writing it off as “culture.” I’ve lived in different cultures (probably more numerous and diverse than your experience). Women don’t enjoy being treated like sex toys – that may not be your experience, but don’t confuse your experience (or lack of it) for universality. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/590 "2017-11-18T07:40:30Z")
Am I the only one who got the joke? Leeann Tweeden wasn’t the butt of the joke. She was wearing body armor. Franken is pretending to **fail** to sexually assault her. He looks back gleefully as if he’s going to cop a feel even though obviously her gear is going to prevent that. The humor is in the incompetent pervert and not in the defenseless woman being taken advantage of. It’s certainly not a great look for a senator and I get that people will find it unsavory for referencing sexual assault but the joke doesn’t _condone_ sexual assault. Personally I thought it was funny. Ms Tweeden’s claim of the aggressive kissing and these new allegations by Melanie Morgan are serious matters that should be investigated, IMO. Lets get people under oath and learn what we can of these accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/591 "2017-11-18T09:53:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Maybe you need to have more conversations with females, rather than just writing it off as “culture.” I’ve lived in different cultures (probably more numerous and diverse than your experience). Women don’t enjoy being treated like sex toys – that may not be your experience, but don’t confuse your experience (or lack of it) for universality. funny _ **man** _splaining. of course not one word relevant to this was said however your puritan confusion of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/592 "2017-11-18T10:02:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If that guy (or I) were the topic of this thread, I wouldn’t mind having a discussion with you about it. But he is (/ I am) not, and I’d hate to be responsible for derailing this delightful thread. Says the guy who brought up Bill Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/593 "2017-11-18T12:33:40Z")
Is it wrong that I am more disappointed by Al Franken because I had higher expectations for him in the first place? I mean, I expect any senator (or president for that matter) not to rape or grab pussy, but I expect sexist pig talk from a lot of men, especially the conservative ilk. I’ve read Franklen’s books, and I thought he had better values than to make dumb jokes, let alone use a rehearsal kiss as an excuse to “French” someone, which is so juvenile, I don’t know where to begin. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/594 "2017-11-18T13:37:09Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Is it wrong that I am more disappointed by Al Franken because I had higher expectations for him in the first place? I mean, I expect any senator (or president for that matter) not to rape or grab pussy, but I expect sexist pig talk from a lot of men, especially the conservative ilk. I’ve read Franklen’s books, and I thought he had better values than to make dumb jokes, let alone use a rehearsal kiss as an excuse to “French” someone, which is so juvenile, I don’t know where to begin. If you’re disappointed by him, then you don’t know his origin. As a comedy writer and sometime performer from the beginning days of SNL, I am not the least bit surprised and would be shocked if he wasn’t doing plenty of coke in the 70s into the early 80s on top of it. I think the only surprise was the timing of this offense, not the offense itself. 1986 would have been no surprise, 1976 would have been, well of course. 2006 is surprising, especially on a USO tour. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/595 "2017-11-18T14:28:08Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > If you’re disappointed by him, then you don’t know his origin. As a comedy writer and sometime performer from the beginning days of SNL, I am not the least bit surprised and would be shocked if he wasn’t doing plenty of coke in the 70s into the early 80s on top of it. I think the only surprise was the timing of this offense, not the offense itself. 1986 would have been no surprise, 1976 would have been, well of course. 2006 is surprising, especially on a USO tour. I know he was involved in SNL going way back, and that SNL can be raunchy and gross. But I still expect someone to be able to know the difference between what is acceptable to write as comedy for people to perform, and what is unacceptable to force on someone. For example, if he has to kiss someone as part of a skit, it is not unreasonable to expect her to rehearse it. If she doesn’t want to, it is reasonable to recast the part. If she agrees to rehearse, kiss her, but there’s no need to stick your tongue in her mouth. They were not filming a close-up scene in a movie, so no one in the audience would no one way of another where their tongues were. A stage kiss should not involve tongues. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/596 "2017-11-18T15:42:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > She said she “was worried about the potential backlash and damage going public might have on my career as a broadcaster”, but that doesn’t necessarily have to be backlash or damage from Franken personally. I have no difficulty imagining she was worried about gaining a reputation as the sort of woman that made sexual harassment allegations, and how that might affect her reception with the public or potential employers’ evaluations of her as she applied for future positions, irrespective of what Franken might do or not do. Right – the factor of an enabling culture (either general or trade-specific) is something that affects the reactions of the people affected. You do not have to be in fear of consequences directly from the \*individual \*involved. It it was not just Franken that created a bad situation for her, he was just the one that took advantage of it. And let’s remember it, at the time this was an event inside the entertainment/media sphere, not the political. People in relatively low positions in that world have always had in their minds that it would be trivial for producers to say _“find some other pretty face, one who does not make waves”_ as opposed to confronting more established figures with a history of delivering good material or good box office. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/597 "2017-11-18T15:42:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t have any “insight” to share other than I think whenever I draw a bright line, there will be new circumstances in some case that I had not yet considered. I’m not claiming any superiority to my approach; it’s just that I don’t feel like I’ve given it enough time to formulate a complete and consistent system with which to judge people. Maybe sometime in the future I will. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/598 "2017-11-18T15:58:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What possible bright line could you draw? There are infinite shades of egregiousness vs ambiguity, as well as credibility. Perhaps an ethical conduct hearing for congress members who are accused of sexual predation or harassment would be in order to determine if there are grounds for censure or dismissal. Accuser credibility could be addressed by asking them to testify under oath in front of a bipartisan congressional panel that includes men and women congress members. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/599 "2017-11-18T17:07:10Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Is it wrong that I am more disappointed by Al Franken because I had higher expectations for him in the first place? I mean, I expect any senator (or president for that matter) not to rape or grab pussy, but I expect sexist pig talk from a lot of men, especially the conservative ilk. I’ve read Franklen’s books, and I thought he had better values than to make dumb jokes, let alone use a rehearsal kiss as an excuse to “French” someone, which is so juvenile, I don’t know where to begin. Especially the conservative ilk? :rolleyes: > [@What\_Exit](#): > > If you’re disappointed by him, then you don’t know his origin. As a comedy writer and sometime performer from the beginning days of SNL, I am not the least bit surprised and would be shocked if he wasn’t doing plenty of coke in the 70s into the early 80s on top of it. I think the only surprise was the timing of this offense, not the offense itself. 1986 would have been no surprise, 1976 would have been, well of course. 2006 is surprising, especially on a USO tour. I’m surprised more condemnation of enabling cartel culture due to cocaine use hasn’t happened. My guess is atrocities “over there” aren’t as shame provoking as a kiss here. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/600 "2017-11-18T17:13:26Z")
I too wonder what an ethics investigation looks like in this Congress. The House just voted to jack up the debt by $1.5 trillion by taking health insurance away from poor people, and deductions away from college students, and raising taxes on people who make under $75k, to give breaks to the top 2%. Do they know what that word means? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=31)