# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/701 "2017-11-20T02:10:17Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > So your belief is that the joke is supposed to be that people viewing the photo will instantly grasp that Al Franken is pretending to be a body armor fetishist who is about to successfully get his rocks off? > > This from a person who just questioned whether I understand how jokes work. …you really know how to fucking kill a joke. My joke had nothing to do with Franken or the photo. It had everything to do with the words that you said, which I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/702 "2017-11-20T02:10:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Factual question: What is the nature of the body armor that she is wearing in the picture? > > … I’m pretty sure it’s Kevlar. What I typically think of as “body armor” would be something containing ceramic plates, which are decidedly more thick and rigid. ETA: I expect that most any woman would be offended by someone placing their hands on her chest over a Kevlar vest. It’s not so thick and rigid that I’d expect the average woman to think “this is fine” ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/703 "2017-11-20T02:12:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > From Franken’s apology (emphasis added for those who think they know what he was doing-- he doesn’t even know): Franken is no dummy. He knows that there is little room for maneuver in his current situation. Attempting to defend the joke won’t help him. Condemning it and showing empathy for Ms Tweeden instead was the smart move. That doesn’t mean the joke is indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/704 "2017-11-20T02:19:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you really know how to fucking kill a joke. > > My joke had nothing to do with Franken or the photo. It had everything to do with the words that you said, which I quoted. Maybe if you weren’t trying to joke I would understand your posts. What exactly is your point then? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/705 "2017-11-20T02:29:24Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, to summarize Tweeden characterizes a photo, recently discovered, as groping which it isn’t. The photo however is in poor taste and reflects a juvenile stunt. > > Tweeden also says she was kissed without her consent, which she wasn’t. There are claims that stage kisses don’t involve tongue, but those are nonsense: _it’s a comedy sketch_. And the obvious joke is that unattractive guy slobbers over a beautiful woman. > > So did Franken do nothing wrong? Hell no. As said earlier, this crap deserves investigation and raising the bar is a good thing. Immediate calls for his resignation are wrongheaded though IHMO. I don’t apologize for this, but I’ll take the word of photographer Banquet Bear and concede that evidence of groping is ambiguous. Also, while the kiss was consented to, tongue stuff was not (though memories of that incident vary between the victim and accused). So my core summary is retracted. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Once again, I concur with [CandidGamera with their post earlier in the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20607621#post20607621). Franken has apologized. Tweeden has accepted. The senate should still investigate. That’s been my take since the beginning as well. I’ll add that neither apology nor acceptance should be dismissed, not that BB has done either. Also, Tweeden has said, “We all make mistakes”, which IMHO is a reasonable interpretation of the events. It is not the only defensible interpretation, given the 10 year old evidence as it stands. Tweeden also implies that she wanted to clear room for others to come forward, if such women exist. ## By the way, the investigation will disappoint many. The Senate won’t want to put the hammer down on Franken, as methinks these acts are far milder than, oh, the behavior behind the multi-million dollar congressional sexual harassment settlements that we haven’t yet seen detailed. I think the airing will prove useful anyway. I hope it has a useful chilling effect on asshole behavior and worse. * * * Social media digs up 2006 USO video of Tweeden rubbing her butt against a guitar player, him nudging her ass away, and her grabbing his ass. I am unimpressed by this rebuttal: ISTM like a false equivalence. 10 second vid. [https://twitter.com/RealSickofitAll/status/932385097952751617](https://twitter.com/RealSickofitAll/status/932385097952751617) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rJidGI-NMd0/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/rJidGI-NMd0?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque There are even more dubious claims about a 2006 USO vid with her and Robin Williams. Social media has also noted that USO performers have escort officers. It’s been implied that they would have noticed anything untoward, which is horseshit. But they might be useful witnesses during the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/706 "2017-11-20T02:35:38Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Maybe if you weren’t trying to joke I would understand your posts. What exactly is your point then? …my point was:\*\* I WAS MAKING A JOKE.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/707 "2017-11-20T02:39:19Z")
Please explain your joke. Kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/708 "2017-11-20T02:41:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s Kevlar. What I typically think of as “body armor” would be something containing ceramic plates, which are decidedly more thick and rigid. > > ETA: I expect that most any woman would be offended by someone placing their hands on her chest over a Kevlar vest. It’s not so thick and rigid that I’d expect the average woman to think “this is fine” Thank you. That’s helpful if only to satisfy my curiosity. So it’s not as though she were wearing a sandwich board over a life vest over a parka over a suit of medieval plate mail armor. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/709 "2017-11-20T02:42:15Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t apologize for this, but I’ll take the word of photographer Banquet Bear and concede that evidence of groping is ambiguous. Also, while the kiss was consented to, tongue stuff was not (though memories of that incident vary between the victim and accused). So my core summary is retracted. That’s been my take since the beginning as well. I’ll add that neither apology nor acceptance should be dismissed, not that BB has done either. Also, Tweeden has said, “We all make mistakes”, which IMHO is a reasonable interpretation of the events. It is not the only defensible interpretation, given the 10 year old evidence as it stands. Tweeden also implies that she wanted to clear room for others to come forward, if such women exist. > > ## By the way, the investigation will disappoint many. The Senate won’t want to put the hammer down on Franken, as methinks these acts are far milder than, oh, the behavior behind the multi-million dollar congressional sexual harassment settlements that we haven’t yet seen detailed. I think the airing will prove useful anyway. I hope it has a useful chilling effect on asshole behavior and worse. > > * * * > > Social media digs up 2006 USO video of Tweeden rubbing her butt against a guitar player, him nudging her ass away, and her grabbing his ass. I am unimpressed by this rebuttal: ISTM like a false equivalence. 10 second vid. > [x.com](https://twitter.com/RealSickofitAll/status/932385097952751617) > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?time\_continue=10&v=rJidGI-NMd0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=rJidGI-NMd0) > > There are even more dubious claims about a 2006 USO vid with her and Robin Williams. > > Social media has also noted that USO performers have escort officers. It’s been implied that they would have noticed anything untoward, which is horseshit. But they might be useful witnesses during the investigation. …nicely put. I wouldn’t put that much stake in my testimony: it was a quick test, but it was enough to convince me that I really can’t tell. But YMMV. > [@](#): > > Please explain your joke. :: head explodes :: ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/710 "2017-11-20T02:43:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …my point was:\*\* I WAS MAKING A JOKE.\*\* Making a joke about what? At this point I am not certain I understand anything you’ve posted. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/711 "2017-11-20T02:45:22Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Thank you. That’s helpful if only to satisfy my curiosity. > > So it’s not as though she were wearing a sandwich board over a life vest over a parka over a suit of medieval plate mail armor. Yes, not at all. It’s more like wearing a coat with no sleeves, which does a good job of stopping low-velocity pistol rounds. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/712 "2017-11-20T03:13:19Z")
This whole obsession with being “dismissive”. I think that’s where one of your bearings has seized. A rude and hurtful word is not a crime, but it is bad behavior, the sort of thing that has the universal disapproval of Moms. Littering is a crime, but no one thinks that its the same as armed robbery. And so on along the spectrum, past war crimes to the production and distribution of Coor’s. But Perry Mason does not defend homicide, nor does he dismiss it. And if he had a reasonable case to present, that the defendant had been negligent and thereby caused the death…that would not “dismiss” the negligence. The negligence is still wrong, even a crime but! it is not murder. Acknowledging a spectrum of offensive behavior is not “dismissive”, and that’s kind of a mean thing to say. 'Course, you may not know how vulnerable and sensitive Texans are. Oh, and just by the way…If Sen Franken is scolded, repentant, and a better man for it…what is missing? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/713 "2017-11-20T05:36:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This whole obsession with being “dismissive”. I think that’s where one of your bearings has seized. > > A rude and hurtful word is not a crime, but it is bad behavior, the sort of thing that has the universal disapproval of Moms. Littering is a crime, but no one thinks that its the same as armed robbery. And so on along the spectrum, past war crimes to the production and distribution of Coor’s. > > But Perry Mason does not defend homicide, nor does he dismiss it. And if he had a reasonable case to present, that the defendant had been negligent and thereby caused the death…that would not “dismiss” the negligence. The negligence is still wrong, even a crime but! it is not murder. > > Acknowledging a spectrum of offensive behavior is not “dismissive”, and that’s kind of a mean thing to say. 'Course, you may not know how vulnerable and sensitive Texans are. > > Oh, and just by the way…If Sen Franken is scolded, repentant, and a better man for it…what is missing? Good luck with that idea getting traction in the modern era. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/714 "2017-11-20T06:20:54Z")
Of course he’s playing the pervert - for the camera, I didn’t think that was even in issue. High jinks in an entertainment touring party - who knew. ---
**Author:** ![DUCKofDEATH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@DUCKofDEATH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DUCKofDEATH)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/715 "2017-11-20T06:40:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Accused of sexual harassment, with apparent photographic evidence. > > [Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It](http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/) > > ETA: from looking at the picture it’s looks more like he’s not actually groping her but just pretending to for comic effect. Not sure how that translates. Under what feminist rules should “comic effect” like that be forgiven? When workers whistling at women are being decried as harassers, Franken should get a pass? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/716 "2017-11-20T08:00:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Good luck with that idea getting traction in the modern era. No kidding! **luci’s** sounding positively conservative in this thread! ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/717 "2017-11-20T09:38:03Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Factual question: What is the nature of the body armor that she is wearing in the picture? > > **I think that 2sense may be right that there’s something ridiculous about the idea of groping a person who is wearing body armor.** > > And if what she is wearing is thick and rigid enough, it might be reasonable to say that he _couldn’t_ have been touching _her_, only what she was wearing, and that the distinction is significant. > > That still doesn’t make it okay. It’s not just the picture though. From Tweeden’s other allegations about Franken there does seem to be two sexual assault allegations both hidden behind a thin layer of comedy. Do two instance suggest a theme or m.o? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/718 "2017-11-20T11:35:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No kidding! **luci’s** sounding positively conservative in this thread! You should cut back on the Dr. Pepper when you start to hallucinate. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/719 "2017-11-20T11:45:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No kidding! **luci’s** sounding positively conservative in this thread! It never ceases to amaze me, what conservatives want to own. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/720 "2017-11-20T12:02:40Z")
There does need to be a lot of thinking about this though. What if it’s October 2024 and the Democratic candidate turns out to have grabbed a staffer’s ass one time? Are you all voting Republican? Of course there’s a spectrum! Obviously if you find out your candidate likes 14-year old girls or is constantly grabbing everyone’s ass then he should be nowhere near the White House. I just don’t see Franken’s crimes as resignation-worthy, and if Democrats want to make it so it’ll come back to bite them. Because Republicans certainly won’t be following suit, and Democrats will look even worse if they let someone more beloved or more important than Franken slide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=37)