# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/741 "2017-11-20T15:07:19Z")
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/742 "2017-11-20T15:08:57Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Personally I think Gaudere’s Law should cover situations where people call another post dumb and then make a dumb mistake like “dunbest”. Thanks for the laugh. This is the straight dope. Nothing can possibligh go wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/743 "2017-11-20T15:09:22Z")
I’ll say one thing that you got right, **Fotheringay-Phipps** – my strategy wouldn’t be very effective in the short term. Most people would probably roll their eyes in the near-term. As they should. But it’s not a short-term strategy. It’s now and forever. I’m saying that if, over 5 and 10 and 20 and 50 years, the Democratic party consistently kicks out those with credible allegations of sexual assault against them, and the Republicans consistently tolerate and even rally around those with credible allegations of sexual assault against them, that could be a powerful political message. Even better would be that the Democratic party consistently kicks out those with credible allegations of sexual assault against them, and then the Republican party does so too, because it’s the right fucking thing to do. Still want to poo-poo and roll your eyes? Feel free. But what do I have wrong? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/744 "2017-11-20T15:22:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you trace back the discussion about a “bright line”, the original context was whether Franken should have to resign, so I assumed your bright line advocacy was about that. Yes, Franken should be required to resign or face expulsion. I would like to be able to soften this bright line by giving consideration to the fact that not all sexual harassment cases are the same, i.e. unwanted kissing is not the same as rape; a single complaint is not the same as multiple complaints, etc… I would also like to be able to soften this bright line by giving consideration to the fact that an accuser can state for the record that he/she forgives the accused and requests leniency/consideration of the penalty. I would like to be able to do that, but I’m not sure the remaining grey area is sufficiently narrow. Also, it opens the door to further debates of whether an unwanted kiss is better or worse than a grope is better or worse than persistent suggestive haranguing or lewd messages, etc… It seems to me that as a society we should be able to reach moral clarity that it’s all wrong and behave accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/745 "2017-11-20T15:24:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the Democratic party consistently kicks out those with credible allegations of sexual assault against them I can think of three problems I have with your zero-tolerance policy. (1) Al Franken asked for an ethics investigation, with which he said he would cooperate. For you to insist on his ousting/resignation before such an investigation, no matter what its result, means that you want to get rid of anyone who’s even accused (okay, “credibly” accused) of sexual misconduct. And this could easily backfire. A man’s political opponents could look for the slightest pretext to accuse him, knowing it would get him out of office. And his allies would be reluctant to speak up on anything that they didn’t personally think is worth removing him from office over. (2) You don’t distinguish between those who admit that they did something wrong and apologize for it, and those who don’t. The result of this would be encouraging denial and coverups, and discouraging owning one’s behavior and taking responsibility. (3) I’ve never been a fan of political parties in general, and I don’t like you giving the Democratic Party carte blanche to decide to kick its duly elected members out of office. (Think of the accusations, justified or not, that the Democratic Party insisted that Hilary Clinton had to be their candidate, even though The People wanted Bernie Sanders.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/746 "2017-11-20T15:34:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If Byrd hadn’t repented sincerely (and by my understanding he did, repeatedly), certainly. Note how I’m treating racism differently - unrepentant racism should not be tolerated, but repenting and apologizing for racism should be celebrated. I think the standard should be different for sins on the spectrum of knowingly violating sexual or intimate consent. > > But yes, this is ultimately about morality, and I think organizations, especially public /political should not tolerate such behavior on a moral basis. Past racism is forgivable but past sexual harassment is not? The latter earns you a scarlet H, that you must wear for the rest of your life? In the former, we’re talking about being a leader in an organization that lynched black people and the latter we’re talking about an unwelcome French Kiss and a sophomoric photo. If your Democratic party acts as you are suggesting, I want no part of it. It really is political correctness gone mad. Not only gone mad, but gone hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/747 "2017-11-20T15:39:46Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > speaking of butt grabbing, here is accuser #2 for Franken > > [http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html) I just saw that on CNN. Yeah, this is starting to form a pattern. With a second credible accusation, I amend my position to : He should endure the ethics investigation, then resign. That way the rest of us can still reap the benefits of the teachable moment, but the people of Minnesota can benefit from an untainted Senator. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/748 "2017-11-20T15:43:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Past racism is forgivable but past sexual harassment is not? The latter earns you a scarlet H, that you must wear for the rest of your life? In the former, we’re talking about being a leader in an organization that lynched black people and the latter we’re talking about an unwelcome French Kiss and a sophomoric photo. > > If your Democratic party acts as you are suggesting, I want no part of it. It really is political correctness gone mad. Not only gone mad, but gone hypocritical. I thought this was the other thread but it looks like they are running in the same direction. Byrd is a perfect point on this subject, if we exclude the possibility of redemption then no one will seek it. The Democrats are definitely off their meds right now. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/749 "2017-11-20T16:12:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Past racism is forgivable but past sexual harassment is not? The latter earns you a scarlet H, that you must wear for the rest of your life? In the former, we’re talking about being a leader in an organization that lynched black people and the latter we’re talking about an unwelcome French Kiss and a sophomoric photo. What Byrd did was hold openly awful beliefs at one time, then later repudiated them on his own initiative and worked to fix that cause, and it was at a time when such beliefs were considered common and part of the political spectrum. He wasn’t a closet KKK member who got caught and issued an apology only when it came to light, and his time in the KKK (and his rejection of it) was in the 1940s. This radically different from Franklin - Franklin openly expressed belief in modern notions of bodily autonomy and women’s rights, but acted contrary to those when he could get away with it. The belief that’s it’s OK to tongue kiss or grope a woman against her wishes was common back from the 40’s until the 70’s, but really went away by the 1980s and was certainly gone in the 90s, when the earliest allegation against Franken at this time happened in 2006. Byrd did some bad stuff publically when it was within reason, then openly turned his back on it and worked against it. Franken did bad stuff in secret when he professed to already not believe in it, and only repudiated his actions when caught, plus has a documented history of fake-apologizing for similar indiscretions when caught. Comparing ‘dude was in the Klan in the 40s and repudiated it before he even ran for office’ to ‘Dude was using his position as a senator to get away with grabbing butts’ is pretty silly. Also, if you’re not familiar with the butt-grabbing, welcome to the latest news: > **[Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010 | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html)** > > A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/750 "2017-11-20T16:27:55Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > What Byrd did was hold openly awful beliefs at one time, then later repudiated them on his own initiative and worked to fix that cause, and it was at a time when such beliefs were considered common and part of the political spectrum. He wasn’t a closet KKK member who got caught and issued an apology only when it came to light, and his time in the KKK (and his rejection of it) was in the 1940s. That seems a bit misleading. Byrd publically rejected the KKK and attempted to downplay his prior membership at exactly the time that it became politically inconvenient for him. > **[A Senator's Shame](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/18/AR2005061801105_pf.html)** > > Latest politics news headlines from Washington DC. Follow 2004 elections, campaigns, Democrats, Republicans, political cartoons, opinions from The Washington Post. Features government policy, government tech, political analysis and reports. [I don’t know that Byrd is terribly relevant here, but I thought I’d correct this FTR.] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/751 "2017-11-20T16:31:38Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > What Byrd did was hold openly awful beliefs at one time, then later repudiated them on his own initiative and worked to fix that cause, and it was at a time when such beliefs were considered common and part of the political spectrum. He wasn’t a closet KKK member who got caught and issued an apology only when it came to light, and his time in the KKK (and his rejection of it) was in the 1940s. This radically different from Franklin - Franklin openly expressed belief in modern notions of bodily autonomy and women’s rights, but acted contrary to those when he could get away with it. The belief that’s it’s OK to tongue kiss or grope a woman against her wishes was common back from the 40’s until the 70’s, but really went away by the 1980s and was certainly gone in the 90s, when the earliest allegation against Franken at this time happened in 2006. > > Byrd did some bad stuff publically when it was within reason, then openly turned his back on it and worked against it. Franken did bad stuff in secret when he professed to already not believe in it, and only repudiated his actions when caught, plus has a documented history of fake-apologizing for similar indiscretions when caught. Comparing ‘dude was in the Klan in the 40s and repudiated it before he even ran for office’ to ‘Dude was using his position as a senator to get away with grabbing butts’ is pretty silly. > > Also, if you’re not familiar with the butt-grabbing, welcome to the latest news: > [http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html) I don’t find that the least bit persuasive wrt to the idea that past racism is redeemable, but past sexual harassment is not. I have no idea if what you are saying is an accurate representation of Byrd’s situation, but even if it is, that is introducing nuance that **iiandyiiii** is explicitly saying is not worth considering. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/752 "2017-11-20T16:36:09Z")
Christ. At this point, I’m not seeing a way for Franken to remain honorably in office. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/753 "2017-11-20T16:43:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Christ. At this point, I’m not seeing a way for Franken to remain honorably in office. Yeah, I was reading the other thread, and it looks like there were a few other instances, one happening after he was in office. As they used to say on _SNL_: Buh-bye! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/754 "2017-11-20T17:25:28Z")
> **[Second woman accuses Sen. Franken of sexual misconduct: report](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/20/second-woman-accuses-sen-franken-sexual-misconduct-report/880222001/)** > > The latest accusation allegedly took place nearly two years after Franken was elected to the Senate. God dammit Al. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/755 "2017-11-20T17:36:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [Al Franken: Second woman accuses senator of groping her in 2010](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/20/second-woman-accuses-sen-franken-sexual-misconduct-report/880222001/) > > God dammit Al. So much for the Giant of the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/756 "2017-11-20T17:37:38Z")
I wondered if more accusations would arise. Guys who act this way rarely confine it to a single incident. I don’t see Franken weathering this especially if other accusers appear. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/757 "2017-11-20T17:45:25Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > So you’re saying Senator Franken is smart enough not to try to defend this joke. Right. ISTM that there is almost no chance that added nuance would help Franken at this point. Far more likely I think that it would be perceived as an attack on Ms Tweeden. As much as it hurts perception of him that she is framing the photograph as actual sexual assault it would be worse for if he were to point out that this claim is false. ## It’s just not the time right now. During an ethics investigation these questions could be raised and Ms Tweeden possibly even asked why she had misrepresented the photo. Though if accusers keep coming forward I don’t see how Franken could remain in office long enough for an investigation to take place. > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > speaking of butt grabbing, here is accuser #2 for Franken > > [http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html) There already is a second accuser, conservative radio host Melanie Morgan. No one seems to be talking about her for whatever reason. I guess the question now becomes, will there be more? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/758 "2017-11-20T17:56:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > God dammit Al. I must agree with what was said, this sort of behavior is seldom isolated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/759 "2017-11-20T18:16:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Past racism is forgivable but past sexual harassment is not? The latter earns you a scarlet H, that you must wear for the rest of your life? In the former, we’re talking about being a leader in an organization that lynched black people and the latter we’re talking about an unwelcome French Kiss and a sophomoric photo. > > If your Democratic party acts as you are suggesting, I want no part of it. It really is political correctness gone mad. Not only gone mad, but gone hypocritical. I’m not positive on all the details about Byrd, but here’s my point – past hateful beliefs can be made up for and forgiven (in terms of supporting someone for office) with sincere apology and repentance; past hateful or predatory actions cannot, in terms of support for office. So someone who was in an organization in the past that advocated for racism or misogyny, but then sincerely repented and apologized and has been a consistent advocate against racism and misogyny, can and should be welcomed into the party even at high levels, IMO, but someone who, as an adult, took part in a lynching, race-based assault, intimidation, or the like, or preyed on women or men or children in a sexual manner, violating consent, even with relatively minor allegations (i.e. forced kissing or groping like Franken), should not be welcomed and supported by the party at high levels. With the latest allegations against Franken, and who knows what more remains to be revealed, I very much hope he resigns ASAP, and I hope other Senators are urging him to do so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/760 "2017-11-20T18:46:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Christ. At this point, I’m not seeing a way for Franken to remain honorably in office. But are you seeing a way for him to remain in office dishonorably? In other words, is this a prediction that he will resign, or are you just stating your opinion that if he does not he is without honor? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=39)