# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/841 "2017-11-21T18:06:29Z")
From [Politico](https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/21/john-conyers-sexual-harassment-253977) > [@](#): > > The Conyers case is especially sensitive for Democrats given his age — 88 — seniority, and race. Conyers is the ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee. He is also one of the co-founders of the CBC, a key bloc of votes within the House Democratic Caucus. Pelosi and other Democrats have been especially cautious in dealing with ethics and legal problems involving CBC members. > > “This is a huge, huge problem for us,” said an aide to one longtime Democrat. “I don’t know how Pelosi is going to handle this.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/842 "2017-11-21T18:37:38Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Icon or not, it doesn’t change my stance either. > > Realistically, this isn’t a new stance. Most politicians confronted with a sex scandal step down. (I said “most”, because there have been exceptions.) What seems to be different right now is the pace at which allegations of sexual misconduct are being made. > > I believe that the Left can simultaneously demand higher standards from their representatives and candidates while resisting authoritarianism is this country. I don’t believe that holding our candidates to high standards will result in weaker candidates or a weaker party; the opposite, in fact. Finally, the word “cleanse” that you use conjures visions of McCarthyism or witch hunts, wherein we search out the impure amongst us. I don’t see that happening. I get what you’re saying and in theory that’s the way it oughtta work. But most politicians I’ve read about or been acquainted with personally have skeletons in their closets, and a lot of them relate to sex. Maybe I’m wrong and this is the dawn of a new day when men can no longer bury their sexual misconduct – I would like that to be the case. But I get the feeling like this is all just a big distraction, like whether Republican A once got paid his ex to get an abortion, or Democrat B cheated on his wife with his college-age intern. We’ll talk subjectivity 24/7s and debate whether someone’s worthy of the office while ignoring what they actually vote for. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/843 "2017-11-21T18:39:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In the case of Conyers the issue is not his seat but alienating the CBC. I don’t think the CBC is blindly loyal to Conyers. I mean he’s 88 and someone else can take his place. I’m guessing that Pelosi will probably approach someone close to Conyers and tell him their concerns. Maybe there’s a way to get him to retire without a fight. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/844 "2017-11-21T18:57:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In the case of Conyers the issue is not his seat but alienating the CBC. The ideal way for the CBC to handle it is to demand that **all** the Congressional sexual harassment settlements be made public, and for all Congresscritters similarly situated to be treated alike. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/845 "2017-11-21T19:16:22Z")
The "ideal way for the CBC "is not going to necessarily help the leadership of the Democratic party if the CBC decides to choose the less than ideal way. (As for the CBC, no two situations are exactly alike, and people who are prone to feeling aggrieved will tend to feel that way.) I don’t know what the CBC will do or how the DP will deal with them. But as the quote from Politico stated, “Pelosi and other Democrats have been especially cautious in dealing with ethics and legal problems involving CBC members”. So it’s not like “for all Congresscritters similarly situated to be treated alike” is the way things have been done in the recent past at least. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/846 "2017-11-21T19:16:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The problem with your position is that it sets up sexual misconduct (what we are talking about isn’t always “assault”) as some special category of offense that can never be forgiven. I can slug a guy in the face, but if I apologize, I’m OK. If I force a kiss on a gal, I’m fucked (pun intended). Earlier in the thread, **Richard Parker** brought up the idea that we someone how put sexual assault/transgressions in this taboo category based on a type of Puritanical thinking. I have been thinking about that idea for quite awhile (long before this current mess), and I think there is a lot to that. > > But an unwanted kiss is not really any different from an unwanted punch. In fact, the latter could easily by worse. First of all, the unwanted kisses and so forth are overwhelmingly forced on women by men. Women, on average, are much smaller and lighter than men, with a much larger portion of their body weight being dedicated to uses other than muscle mass. And a man sexually harassing or abusing a woman gets to choose which ones he picks on, and he’s not generally going to pick the ones in the upper tail of the female size-and-strength distribution. Whatever the historical roots of the “we must protect our women” attitude, it’s still at the very least a special case of “pick on somebody your own size.” And that’s without even getting into the power imbalance, that has in the past allowed abusers to be the ones with the capacity to make the victims’ lives miserable, far more than the other way around. And it’s also without getting into sexual harassment being an invasion of one’s personal, intimate space in a way that a punch in the face definitely isn’t. I haven’t been punched in the face since my school days, and while it hurt, I didn’t feel particularly violated or scarred by it, the way I probably would have if, say, I’d been one of those boys molested by Jerry Sandusky or Dennis Hastert. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/847 "2017-11-21T19:47:29Z")
Please see post #812. I’m not ignoring you, **RTF**. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/848 "2017-11-21T20:02:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > As I said before, if you’re going to make this comparison, you need to acknowledge that performing the equivalent punch would be equivalently disqualifying. Where would you place Franken’s transgretions relative to sitting congressman [Greg Gianforte](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/congressman-who-assaulted-reporter-lied-to-police-about-it.html). ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/849 "2017-11-21T20:04:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I get what you’re saying and in theory that’s the way it oughtta work. But most politicians I’ve read about or been acquainted with personally have skeletons in their closets, and a lot of them relate to sex. Maybe I’m wrong and this is the dawn of a new day when men can no longer bury their sexual misconduct – I would like that to be the case. > > But I get the feeling like this is all just a big distraction, like whether Republican A once got paid his ex to get an abortion, or Democrat B cheated on his wife with his college-age intern. We’ll talk subjectivity 24/7s and debate whether someone’s worthy of the office while ignoring what they actually vote for. I agree with this. I don’t think “sexual harassment” is unique in shortcomings powerful people are subject to. Nor do I understand why it should be uniquely disqualifying factor. Politicians are allowed to apologize and rehabilitate from all manner of substance abuses. Serial marital infidelity is not disqualifying. Nor are questionable business dealings. Past expressions of presently unpalatable positions can be talked away. Blatant lies are acceptable for some reason. Sexual harassment sure seems to be the flavor of the month, but I don’t think the type of actions Franken is accused of are terribly high on any list of ethical “failings.” I think that allegations should be openly expressed and addressed. But I think the issues are so varied, that I reject any desire for extreme responses before process. Moreover, I feel different “audiences” can choose to respond differently. It is hard for one group to say how another group ought to react to a specific instance. So, with respect to Franken, different individuals, “interest groups”, or commentators can express their views however they wish. Minnesota voters can decide whether or not to vote for him. And the Senate can decide whether to proceed with and act upon any investigation. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/850 "2017-11-21T20:33:57Z")
As I said, more information will come out. Pictures are now publicly available from the trip showing Ms Tweeden engaging in raunchy behavior including a photo of her kissing a surprised looking soldier full on the mouth. In this context Franken’s joke doesn’t seem so exceptional. (Assuming you believe the photo was a joke and not just Franken and a buddy creeping on Tweeden with a picture that somehow ended up on a CD of memories of the trip later given to her.) To be clear, Tweeden’s behavior doesn’t mean she is a slut who deserves what she claims Franken deliberately did to her in the rehearsal and afterwards. I’m not trying to attack her character. Speaking of character, 36 women who worked on SNL have issued a statement of support for Franken. If there is a pattern of abusive behavior on his part it doesn’t seem to have manifested during the 15 years he worked on that show. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/851 "2017-11-21T20:51:08Z")
I’m surprised there has been no mention of Ms. Tweeden’s modeling background. I assume doing so would be considered “victim shaming/blaming.” I’m not doing so. But as one assesses the nuances of a situation, it seems to me that performer A’s expectations of what might shock performer B might vary depending on that B’s history. Has there been any explanation of why Ms Tweeden was invited on the tour? Because of her radio show, or because of her modeling? I find it curious that she is consistently described as a radio personality, with very little mention of her having been a swimsuit/lingerie/nude model. Not saying her work history excuses behavior, but I do think it relevant information. No, a stripper doesn’t deserve to be raped. But I might expect them to be less likely to be offended by a dirty joke. And, of course, none of this has anything to do with the woman at the fair. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/852 "2017-11-21T21:23:08Z")
Well, she wasn’t a stripper (if that matters), but why would you think a nude model would be less offended by an unwelcome kiss? It might work the other way round, since such a person might be hit on all the time and be just sick of it. Who knows… which is why her background shouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/853 "2017-11-21T21:32:14Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > We are not property. no I am not property, I do not need to be told that. that does not mean I share the lens of the american culture either and the puritan lens you see certain things through. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/854 "2017-11-21T21:43:53Z")
**Dinsdale** : I alluded to her modeling career upthread. I also cited social media (pictures) showing that she had a certain tolerance for racy material during her USO shows. According to wikipedia, she was a non-nude glamour model for many years, even appearing in Playboy in a clothed state. When she was 38, in 2011, she appeared in a nude pictorial in Playboy. ## That’s a somewhat unusual career trajectory and suggests that she has definite boundaries, ones that might be atypical. In my view, her background taken as a whole tends to make her story more plausible. * * * Separately, from today’s [TPM](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/snl-women-defend-franken): [INDENT][INDENT] Tweeden accused Franken of forcibly kissing her, and groping her when she was asleep, when the two were performing together on a USO tour in 2006, before Franken was elected to the Senate. Franken apologized publicly to Tweeden in two separate statements and asked the Senate Ethics Committee to investigate the incident. [/INDENT][/INDENT] This sort of characterization of Tweeden’s claims, not at all unusual in the media, seems like it needs the sort of qualification we’ve provided in this thread. (The kiss was consented to, the tongue was not; the groping is unproven, the obnoxiousness of the photo is confirmed). Tweeden’s appearances on Hannity also show a fast and loose relationship with the facts. [Fox Forwards Blatantly False Claim That DREAM Act Would Provide "Free Ride To College" | Media Matters for America](https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2010/12/09/fox-forwards-blatantly-false-claim-that-dream-a/174225) That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be listened to. I find the spine of her story to be plausible and I suspect we’ll be hearing at some point that the photo speaks for itself. But it’s relevant that she’s hardly a precision witness (most witnesses aren’t). From twitter [Sally Albright opines](https://twitter.com/SallyAlbright/status/932967416400961536): [INDENT][INDENT]What if we said “Listen to Women” instead of “Believe Women” I see too many people saying we should let women accuse whoever they want and throw the book a them without any investigation or follow up. No. [/INDENT][/INDENT] I’m sympathetic to this view, provided “Listen” implies, “Fair minded hearing”. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/855 "2017-11-21T21:54:36Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’ll put it this way: I’ll advocate the resignation of Al Franken when Donald Trump resigns and Roy Moore quits his campaign. Until then, I don’t want Al Franken to even think of resigning. Of course I know that if two or three more women come forward, then the Democrats will swallow their own poison and allow the fascists to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I’m guessing that the news about Conyers means that Franken is in _greater_, not less, danger of being deep-sixed by his fellow Democrats. Conyers may be considered untouchable by Democrats. So someone else will have to go to prove Democratic adherence to stated ideals. And at the moment, that looks like Franken. Franken will be the sacrificial offering to expiate the guilt of all those who gave Bill Clinton a pass, back in the 1990s. > [@asahi](#): > > The Democrats are going to fall into the trap of trying to prove their moral purity to people, when in reality people don’t really care. They’ll be judged by their own standards, but Republicans won’t be. They’ve compartmentalized individual decency from political policies. Yes, it absolutely is a trap (and you identified it very nicely). Democrats will be obsessed with purity, **while Republicans will go on exploiting and abusing women with complete impunity.** If Franken is booted without an investigation, it will be a clear signal to the GOP that they can remove Democrats from Congress at will. ‘No investigation’ means that any accusation, _ **no matter how unsupported by evidence** _, will mean another Democrat removed. For every member of Congress, there will be hundreds if not thousands of cases in which proof exists that some particular woman (or teen or even child of any gender) was present in the same room at the same time as the member of Congress. (Via photos or videos or conference registrations, etc.) Out of all those cases, only one need be found who will be willing to allege misconduct. Which is not to say that all accusations will be false; some may well be true, and would hold up to investigation. In those cases, the Democrat _should_ be removed. But the new age that’s dawning if Franken is pushed out _before_ an investigation, is one in which evidence doesn’t matter. Truth doesn’t matter. All that matters is the accusation. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/856 "2017-11-21T21:59:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, she wasn’t a stripper (if that matters), but why would you think a nude model would be less offended by an unwelcome kiss? It might work the other way round, since such a person might be hit on all the time and be just sick of it. Who knows… which is why her background shouldn’t matter. I think her background is relevant to the picture. Here is a former Hooters girl who has posed nude for Playboy and who was presumably invited on the tour to engage in bawdy entertainment for the troops. In that context the photo doesn’t seem so outrageous. The allegation of Franken forcing himself on her is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/857 "2017-11-21T22:06:02Z")
I see what you mean. The slut had it coming to her. She’s fair game for any guy to cop a feel (or pretend to), especially when she’s sleeping! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/858 "2017-11-21T22:10:22Z")
That thing about the state fair grope is just so implausible. I’ve been to the MN State Fair to get my wallet sucked, its an OK state fair, you could miss it, be late, whatever. So, he’s there for the purpose of being seen there. How many pictures were taken that day of Ole and Lena and their friend, Al? Lots of them. And one complaint. Al Franken picked that one overpowering butt to risk his career on? Just couldn’t help it. And nobody else saw it? This picture… [http://www.startribune.com/woman-to-cnn-franken-had-hand-wrapped-tightly-around-my-butt-cheek-at-state-fair/458819893/](http://www.startribune.com/woman-to-cnn-franken-had-hand-wrapped-tightly-around-my-butt-cheek-at-state-fair/458819893/)… accompanies everything I see about the Great MN Butt Grab. Nothing specifically says this is the photo, so, that caveat. I think it is, because its there on just about every article. And if you think so, tell me if you see shock and dismay on her face. Or is that just an utterly bland and uninteresting snapshot. (Maybe she was just stunned by the power and charisma Al Franken radiates.) I do not buy this one. Its unlikely stacked upon improbable in a pool of no way sauce. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/859 "2017-11-21T22:16:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I see what you mean. The slut had it coming to her. She’s fair game for any guy to cop a feel (or pretend to), especially when she’s sleeping! I miss your penchant for droll understatement. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/860 "2017-11-21T22:20:39Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Tweeden’s appearances on Hannity also show a fast and loose relationship with the facts. [https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2010/12/09/fox-forwards-blatantly-false-claim-that-dream-a/174225](https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2010/12/09/fox-forwards-blatantly-false-claim-that-dream-a/174225) > That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be listened to. I find the spine of her story to be plausible and I suspect we’ll be hearing at some point that the photo speaks for itself. But it’s relevant that she’s hardly a precision witness (most witnesses aren’t). Even assuming that Media Matters is more reliable than Fox on this, there’s a huge difference between people being inaccurate as to policy matters and people lying about things that happened to them personally. (If that were not the case, then you could dismiss all such testimony by all politicians.) > [@elucidator](#): > > So, he’s there for the purpose of being seen there. How many pictures were taken that day of Ole and Lena and their friend, Al? Lots of them. And one complaint. Al Franken picked that one overpowering butt to risk his career on? Just couldn’t help it. That makes a lot of sense. Either you grope everyone or you grope no one. (I once saw Trump not grabbing the pussies of a whole crowd of women, therefore …) > [@](#): > > This picture… > [http://www.startribune.com/woman-to-cnn-franken-had-hand-wrapped-tightly-around-my-butt-cheek-at-state-fair/458819893/](http://www.startribune.com/woman-to-cnn-franken-had-hand-wrapped-tightly-around-my-butt-cheek-at-state-fair/458819893/)… > accompanies everything I see about the Great MN Butt Grab. Nothing specifically says this is the photo, so, that caveat. I think it is, because its there on just about every article. And if you think so, tell me if you see shock and dismay on her face. Or is that just an utterly bland and uninteresting snapshot. (Maybe she was just stunned by the power and charisma Al Franken radiates.) George Bush Sr [evidently had that same charisma](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41771986). For some reason it went unremarked during his political career … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=44)