# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/861 "2017-11-21T22:32:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I see what you mean. The slut had it coming to her. She’s fair game for any guy to cop a feel (or pretend to), especially when she’s sleeping! I see what you mean, Hitler was right!!! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/862 "2017-11-21T22:37:02Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > I see what you mean, Hitler was right!!! You know who else was right? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/863 "2017-11-21T22:40:11Z")
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**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/864 "2017-11-21T22:42:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know who else was right? Someone who bothered to try to figure out what people were saying before responding? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/865 "2017-11-21T22:43:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …And if you think so, tell me if you see shock and dismay on her face. Or is that just an utterly bland and uninteresting snapshot. (Maybe she was just stunned by the power and charisma Al Franken radiates.) > > I do not buy this one. Its unlikely stacked upon improbable in a pool of no way sauce. I can imagine a number of reasons women might fail to react one way or another, and might fail to show shock or dismay. And tho I would not be horribly distressed if my butt were grabbed, that is not to say someone else oughtn’t react far more profoundly. I prefer not to even debate whether it happened one way or another. Even the worst descriptions to date: an unwanted wet kiss, a sophomoric photo, and a butt grab - do not merit resignation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/866 "2017-11-21T22:44:36Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Someone who bothered to try to figure out what people were saying before responding? No. Someone who gets a joke! ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/867 "2017-11-21T22:47:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > **Dinsdale** : I alluded to her modeling career upthread. … Sorry - long thread. Can anyone who has been to a USO show report on the common level of entertainment in a show headlined by a comedian? How are racy models featured? Are sexual entendres common? Or is it more highbrow with chamber music and recitation of sonnets? Can any generalities be made? The setting may be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/868 "2017-11-21T22:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Even assuming that Media Matters is more reliable than Fox on this, there’s a huge difference between people being inaccurate as to policy matters and people lying about things that happened to them personally. (If that were not the case, then you could dismiss all such testimony by all politicians.)… Its not that she was ill-informed on policy matters, its that she spread disinformation and got paid for it. You think maybe she would make more money if she got more attention? Go ahead, take a wild stab at it, be bold! Kinda hints at motivation, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/869 "2017-11-21T22:51:19Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Sorry - long thread. > > Can anyone who has been to a USO show report on the common level of entertainment in a show headlined by a comedian? How are racy models featured? Are sexual entendres common? Or is it more highbrow with chamber music and recitation of sonnets? Can any generalities be made? The setting may be relevant. According to the article, she was supposed to MC the show. Introduce the guests. She herself said that USO shows are rife with sexual innuendo. But, as I noted before, innuendo is just that-- innuendo. It does not mean actual sexual or sexualized acts. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/870 "2017-11-21T22:51:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. Someone who gets a joke! Excuse me for assuming you actually meant what you posted. So what exactly is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/871 "2017-11-21T22:57:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its not that she was ill-informed on policy matters, its that she spread disinformation and got paid for it. You think maybe she would make more money if she got more attention? Go ahead, take a wild stab at it, be bold! > > Kinda hints at motivation, don’t you think? I actually do like your style, but it sometimes makes your substance hard to decipher. Or even to discern if there is any substance altogether, FTM. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/872 "2017-11-21T23:11:18Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Excuse me for assuming you actually meant what you posted. > > So what exactly is your point? That this: > [@you](#): > > I think her background is relevant to the picture. Here is a former Hooters girl who has posed nude for Playboy and who was presumably invited on the tour to engage in bawdy entertainment for the troops. In that context the photo doesn’t seem so outrageous. Is bunk (emphasis added), and if you don’t realize why, ask your wife, girlfriend, sister or other female acquaintance. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/873 "2017-11-21T23:34:06Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > I think her background is relevant to the picture. Here is a former Hooters girl who has posed nude for Playboy… FTR, she posed nude for Playboy in 2011, after the events in question. And she posed clothed for Playboy before the events in question, which seems to me to be a little unusual for a glamour model. This supports the contention that she did have boundaries, though their combination might have been a little unusual. If somebody claims that it’s reasonable to assume that she wouldn’t mind having that sort of photo taken, I’m going to need some better evidence. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Even assuming that Media Matters is more reliable than Fox on this, there’s a huge difference between people being inaccurate as to policy matters and people lying about things that happened to them personally. (If that were not the case, then you could dismiss all such testimony by all politicians.) Media Matters publishes the full transcript, so sourcing isn’t especially relevant. She also said that the photo shows that she was groped while she was asleep. That’s not an entirely balanced treatment of the photo, which shows a shadow. Banquet Bear has noted the plausibility of contact with an object while still having a flash cast a shadow. That’s possible. But I find the characterization originally made to be not especially careful. So yeah: pattern. As I said earlier though, I find the spine of her story to be plausible. Investigation good, rush to judgment bad. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/874 "2017-11-21T23:43:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > According to the article, she was supposed to MC the show. Introduce the guests. She herself said that USO shows are rife with sexual innuendo. But, as I noted before, innuendo is just that-- innuendo. It does not mean actual sexual or sexualized acts. Innuendo can’t be photographed? Is she saying that if she was not asleep it would be a skit? That photo was concretized innuendo. It looks like part of almost any USO show since ww2, and Al seems to be in the Bob Hope role. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/875 "2017-11-21T23:52:52Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Innuendo can’t be photographed? > > Is she saying that if she was not asleep it would be a skit? We were talking about the show itself. Her comments about innuendo had to do with the skit with the kiss in it. > [@](#): > > That photo was concretized innuendo. It looks like part of almost any USO show since ww2, and Al seems to be in the Bob Hope role. The photo was not part of the show. The photo was taken on the flight back to the US from Afghanistan. We’re talking about someone who, if she was paid at all, would have been paid a nominal fee to fly half-way around the world into a war zone to entertain the troops. I don’t care where she worked before that… she didn’t deserve to be photographed like that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/876 "2017-11-22T00:07:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Media Matters publishes the full transcript, so sourcing isn’t especially relevant. I wasn’t questioning whether she said what she was quoted as saying, so the transcript is irrelevant. But was she was accused of was misrepresenting some law. It’s very common that the interpretation of laws is subject to different viewpoints, and in addition, there are sometimes things which are the practical impact of laws even if they’re not explicitly in the text of the law. So you frequently find disputes over what this or that law means or doesn’t mean. In this case, we’re relying on the Media Matters’ assessment that she misrepresented that law. That might not be the case, so I noted this in passing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/877 "2017-11-22T00:11:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t care where she worked before that… she didn’t deserve to be photographed like that. So what I’m wondering is, was the intent to humiliate, or to josh? If Franken and the photographer had been in several contexts with her where she was rubbing butts with singers and making off-color jokes with everyone around her, is it possible he regarded this photograph as yet another off-color joke that she’d think was funny, similar to rubbing butts? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/878 "2017-11-22T00:23:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what I’m wondering is, was the intent to humiliate, or to josh? > > If Franken and the photographer had been in several contexts with her where she was rubbing butts with singers and making off-color jokes with everyone around her, is it possible he regarded this photograph as yet another off-color joke that she’d think was funny, similar to rubbing butts? Franken tells us himself that he doesn’t remember what was going through his head at the time, so we’ll probably never know. She seems to think it was humiliating, and Franken says he understands why she would feel “violated”. I would say best to leave it at that rather than try to parse some degree of lesser badness into this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/879 "2017-11-22T00:51:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Franken tells us himself that he doesn’t remember what was going through his head at the time, so we’ll probably never know. She seems to think it was humiliating, and Franken says he understands why she would feel “violated”. I would say best to leave it at that rather than try to parse some degree of lesser badness into this. She said: > [@Tweeden](#): > > You knew exactly what you were doing. You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later, and be ashamed. That’s the part I’m wondering about. She’s imputing a motive to him, and I’m wondering whether it’s an incorrect imputation. I have an ex-coworker that I’m friends with and see at parties. Once at a party she pulled out her phone and showed me a picture of a naked woman that she claimed looked like her wife (she was showing it to everybody). She has a pretty raunchy sense of humor. I have another friend I don’t work with who has never made the slightest raunchy joke to me. I’m not the sort to show nudie pix to friends on my cell phone. But if I showed the first friend a nudie picture, I would expect her to laugh. If I showed the same picture to my second friend, I’d expect it to end not only that friendship, but several other friendships, as news of my transgression spread. If my first friend felt violated by my showing her such a picture, I wouldn’t try to deny her feelings, but I’d really question my whole understanding of the friendship and of what I thought I knew about her. Context matters, and I wonder if Franken vastly misread the context of their relationship. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/880 "2017-11-22T00:53:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Please see post #812. I’m not ignoring you, **RTF**. OK, I missed that earlier. No prob. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=45)