# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/881 "2017-11-22T01:01:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I wasn’t questioning whether she said what she was quoted as saying, so the transcript is irrelevant. > > But was she was accused of was misrepresenting some law. It’s very common that the interpretation of laws is subject to different viewpoints, and in addition, there are sometimes things which are the practical impact of laws even if they’re not explicitly in the text of the law. So you frequently find disputes over what this or that law means or doesn’t mean. In this case, we’re relying on the Media Matters’ assessment that she misrepresented that law. That might not be the case, so I noted this in passing. ## Tweeden is neither a lawyer nor an expert in this area. The reader can follow the link and decide whether she was speaking out of her posterior. * * * Kevin Drum notes the double standards that are emerging between decent human beings and assholes. Upthread this was alluded to in the context of zero tolerance policies: [INDENT][INDENT]There’s a partisan issue here, but there’s also, for lack of a better phrase, an asshole issue as well. If you’re fundamentally a decent human being, like Franken, you apologize. Then you get investigated. Then you might resign, because lots of your fellow decent human beings think you should. But if you’re an asshole, not only do you deny the charges, you do your best to smear the accusers. That’s what Moore and Trump have done. This gives your fellow assholes the cover they need to back off while they “wait for more evidence.” The result is that the more decent you are, the more likely you are to pay the price for sexual misconduct. The more of an asshole you are, the less likely you’ll pay any price. ## This is hardly an ironclad rule… [/INDENT][/INDENT] Read more: [We’re in Danger of Squandering Our Sexual Abuse Moment – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/11/were-in-danger-of-squandering-our-sexual-abuse-moment/) * * * > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what I’m wondering is, was the intent to humiliate, or to josh? > > If Franken and the photographer had been in several contexts with her where she was rubbing butts with singers and making off-color jokes with everyone around her, is it possible he regarded this photograph as yet another off-color joke that she’d think was funny, similar to rubbing butts? I vote, “Possible”. It’s also possible that Tweeden wasn’t offended at all by anything Franken did, and this is basically a huge political ratfuck. Evidence against: she hasn’t gone full out Palin on Franken: Tweeden accepted his apology and noted that we all make mistakes. ## Intent is very hard to discern, so methinks falling back on the reasonable woman test is appropriate. Also, investigation is good. * * * Assertion: there’s no real evidence that Franken “grabbed” Tweeden’s breasts, and that Tweeden would say so reflects her habits of imprecision. Again, that doesn’t mean I don’t accept the spine of her story, based on my current evaluation of the evidence. Scare quotes presented without apology. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/882 "2017-11-22T01:21:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what I’m wondering is, was the intent to humiliate, or to josh? > > If Franken and the photographer had been in several contexts with her where she was rubbing butts with singers and making off-color jokes with everyone around her, is it possible he regarded this photograph as yet another off-color joke that she’d think was funny, similar to rubbing butts? Do we know how she knew Franken touched her breasts while she was asleep? The photo doesn’t look like one of a series at all. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/883 "2017-11-22T01:43:31Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Do we know how she knew Franken touched her breasts while she was asleep? > > The photo doesn’t look like one of a series at all. The photo allegedly proves it. She says she only came across the photo recently IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/884 "2017-11-22T01:44:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > She said: > That’s the part I’m wondering about. She’s imputing a motive to him, and I’m wondering whether it’s an incorrect imputation. > > I have an ex-coworker that I’m friends with and see at parties. Once at a party she pulled out her phone and showed me a picture of a naked woman that she claimed looked like her wife (she was showing it to everybody). She has a pretty raunchy sense of humor. I have another friend I don’t work with who has never made the slightest raunchy joke to me. > > I’m not the sort to show nudie pix to friends on my cell phone. But if I showed the first friend a nudie picture, I would expect her to laugh. If I showed the same picture to my second friend, I’d expect it to end not only that friendship, but several other friendships, as news of my transgression spread. > > If my first friend felt violated by my showing her such a picture, I wouldn’t try to deny her feelings, but I’d really question my whole understanding of the friendship and of what I thought I knew about her. > > Context matters, and I wonder if Franken vastly misread the context of their relationship. Yes, I think they could have different impressions of what happened, and I’ve said so at least once in this thread. For example, none of us has seen the script and maybe it says “they kissed passionately, with tongue” or maybe it said “they kissed”. Maybe Franken thought the kiss was supposed to be tongue and maybe she didn’t. Who knows? I’ve also said that because of this, I think the photo is the worse of the two situations. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/885 "2017-11-22T02:40:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That this: > > Is bunk (emphasis added), and if you don’t realize why, ask your wife, girlfriend, sister or other female acquaintance. You two are puttin on a show! Hey where’s Big John McCarthy when you need him? Sorry, bad joke. Carry on ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/886 "2017-11-22T02:51:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’m guessing that the news about Conyers means that Franken is in _greater_, not less, danger of being deep-sixed by his fellow Democrats. Conyers may be considered untouchable by Democrats. So someone else will have to go to prove Democratic adherence to stated ideals. And at the moment, that looks like Franken. > > Franken will be the sacrificial offering to expiate the guilt of all those who gave Bill Clinton a pass, back in the 1990s. > > Yes, it absolutely is a trap (and you identified it very nicely). Democrats will be obsessed with purity, **while Republicans will go on exploiting and abusing women with complete impunity.** > > If Franken is booted without an investigation, it will be a clear signal to the GOP that they can remove Democrats from Congress at will. ‘No investigation’ means that any accusation, _ **no matter how unsupported by evidence** _, will mean another Democrat removed. > > For every member of Congress, there will be hundreds if not thousands of cases in which proof exists that some particular woman (or teen or even child of any gender) was present in the same room at the same time as the member of Congress. (Via photos or videos or conference registrations, etc.) Out of all those cases, only one need be found who will be willing to allege misconduct. > > Which is not to say that all accusations will be false; some may well be true, and would hold up to investigation. In those cases, the Democrat _should_ be removed. > > But the new age that’s dawning if Franken is pushed out _before_ an investigation, is one in which evidence doesn’t matter. Truth doesn’t matter. All that matters is the accusation. All good points, but beyond that I go back to what I said yesterday: an entire nation, some 63 million people across large swaths of the nation, voted for someone who almost certainly committed multiple sexual assaults, and they did so with full knowledge. So Al Franken is supposed to resign, but the guy who can launch nukes won’t? Fuck that. Again, if the people of Minnesota make it clear that this is a game changer and the Senate democrats see that and put pressure on him, I suppose that’s one thing. But I would hope that people like Gillibrand and Pelosi aren’t in a hurry to torch someone who’s been a stalwart over one or two accusations, particularly when the context isn’t clear. Al Franken wasn’t a high school wrestling coach who played with boys’ penises (Hastert. Cough! Hastert). He wasn’t a predator who got banned from a fucking Alabama mall (CHrist, how bad do you have to be to be the fucking DA and get banned from a local mall for perving on HS girls?!?!?!?!). He wasn’t caught on tape bragging about fingering women without their consent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/887 "2017-11-22T02:56:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …where she was rubbing butts with singers … [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJidGI-NMd0) Seen that video, have my doubts. Seems to me the woman in the video is considerably larger in an overall way. Thing is, kinda like her, like people who like raunchy, funny and sexy. These are good things, they help the light to shine, builds character. A good time is tasteless. I have also seen vids of her stints as a commentator of Hannity. Besides a somewhat different appearance, she has nothing in common with the other. She’s as raunchy and funny as a business school brochure. There come’s a point where good looking just ain’t enough. Anyway, don’t think they are the same person. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/888 "2017-11-22T02:56:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That this: > > Is bunk (emphasis added), and if you don’t realize why, ask your wife, girlfriend, sister or other female acquaintance. I’m not arguing with any of them. I am arguing with you. And you are doing a poor job of holding up your end. You don’t need to hide behind their skirts. You can make your point yourself. Also, I now suspect that the someone who failed to get a joke was you. I figured out you were ridiculing my post by pretending to agree with me for slut-shaming Tweeden. I responded in the same vein by pretending to agree with your Nazism to make the point that your interpretation was off. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/889 "2017-11-22T03:40:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > FTR, she posed nude for Playboy in 2011, after the events in question. And she posed clothed for Playboy before the events in question, which seems to me to be a little unusual for a glamour model. This supports the contention that she did have boundaries, though their combination might have been a little unusual. > > If somebody claims that it’s reasonable to assume that she wouldn’t mind having that sort of photo taken, I’m going to need some better evidence. I’m not saying Ms Tweeden doesn’t have boundaries. I’m saying that it’s reasonable to assume she wouldn’t mind a ribald joke because she is on a tour making ribald jokes. > [@](#): > > She also said that the photo shows that she was groped while she was asleep. That’s not an entirely balanced treatment of the photo, which shows a shadow. Banquet Bear has noted the plausibility of contact with an object while still having a flash cast a shadow. That’s possible. But I find the characterization originally made to be not especially careful. So yeah: pattern. I don’t believe there is enough here to show that Ms Tweeden has a pattern of faulty characterizations. To me it certainly seems possible and even likely she would believe the photo showed her being molested if she saw it after Frankin forced himself on her as she claims. It’s hard to “unsee” something once you interpret it a certain way. That’s why it’s so devastating that she framed the picture as sexual assault. Look at the people in this very thread who cannot wrap their head around the possibility that it was a joke on Franken. But we don’t know if Franken forced himself on her. I see that as the crux of the accusation. I’m hoping there will be a formal investigation where we learn more about the rehearsal and Franken’s supposed boorish subsequent behavior. I have fewer questions about the photo though [HERE](http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/) is a link to Leeann Tweeden’s original statement. She says the photo was on a CD given to her “by the photographer” indicating she knew that person yet later claims Franken “had someone take a photo” indicating she didn’t know who took it. I’d like to hear from the photographer. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/890 "2017-11-22T05:12:51Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > All good points, but beyond that I go back to what I said yesterday: an entire nation, some 63 million people across large swaths of the nation, voted for someone who almost certainly committed multiple sexual assaults, and they did so with full knowledge. So Al Franken is supposed to resign, but the guy who can launch nukes won’t? Fuck that. > > Again, if the people of Minnesota make it clear that this is a game changer and the Senate democrats see that and put pressure on him, I suppose that’s one thing. But I would hope that people like Gillibrand and Pelosi aren’t in a hurry to torch someone who’s been a stalwart over one or two accusations, particularly when the context isn’t clear. Al Franken wasn’t a high school wrestling coach who played with boys’ penises (Hastert. Cough! Hastert). He wasn’t a predator who got banned from a fucking Alabama mall (CHrist, how bad do you have to be to be the fucking DA and get banned from a local mall for perving on HS girls?!?!?!?!). He wasn’t caught on tape bragging about fingering women without their consent. So who was caught on tape bragging about fingering women without their consent? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/891 "2017-11-22T05:48:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So who was caught on tape bragging about fingering women without their consent? I’m not sure but I have vague recollections of some politician saying something like this: [INDENT][INDENT] Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. … Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Can anyone ID this quote? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/892 "2017-11-22T06:28:03Z")
Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/893 "2017-11-22T06:34:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hillary. I have searched all the relevant speeches and interviews of Sir Edmund Hillary and I cannot find that quotation. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/894 "2017-11-22T06:47:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m not sure but I have vague recollections of some politician saying something like this: [INDENT][INDENT] Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. … Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Can anyone ID this quote? Well, that paragraph that you quoted contradicts what I quoted. “They let you” means what exactly? Does that mean non-consensual? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/895 "2017-11-22T10:25:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, that paragraph that you quoted contradicts what I quoted. “They let you” means what exactly? Does that mean non-consensual? It means they don’t stop you, which doesn’t tell us anything about consent. And coming from someone who brags about barging into the changing rooms at beauty pageants (and thus according to himself has violated the consent or dozens or hundreds of women), he has no idea what consent means. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/896 "2017-11-22T10:52:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have searched all the relevant speeches and interviews of Sir Edmund Hillary and I cannot find that quotation. It was on the email server. You know, the one that got wiped. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/897 "2017-11-22T10:55:11Z")
Just because someone who grabs women by the pussy says they, “let him do it,” doesn’t necessarily mean that they actually let him do it, ya know? Especially when the claim comes from someone who lies three times before he opens his eyes every morning. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/898 "2017-11-22T12:38:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, that paragraph that you quoted contradicts what I quoted. “They let you” means what exactly? Does that mean non-consensual? No, but “I don’t even wait” is interesting. Wait for what: the nachos he ordered? Wait for sunrise? Wait for Godot? I mean, I guess it could be any of those things. But there’s a different reading: “I don’t even wait [for consent].” And I’m not seeing a different reading that makes nearly as much sense. What do you think he’s not waiting for? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/899 "2017-11-22T13:38:33Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Just because someone who grabs women by the pussy says they, “let him do it,” doesn’t necessarily mean that they actually let him do it, ya know? Especially when the claim comes from someone who lies three times before he opens his eyes every morning. If we want to get all technical and shit, just because someone brags about grabbing women by the pussy doesn’t mean they actually do it. It means, at best, that he’s what we (my social group) call a “big talker” and thinks telling people he treats women like sex objects makes him some sort of cool dude or alpha male or whatever. If he he does do it, then he’s a sexual predator. Either way, he’s a douche. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/900 "2017-11-22T13:45:51Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Also, I now suspect that the someone who failed to get a joke was you. I figured out you were ridiculing my post by pretending to agree with me for slut-shaming Tweeden. I responded in the same vein by pretending to agree with your Nazism to make the point that your interpretation was off. Yes, that’s an excellent analysis, especially since I responded with the totally serious: “You know who else was right?” [This is a test. Am I agreeing with you or laughing at your analysis? Think about it, but not too much.] Anyway, I don’t see any value in continuing this discussion, so you are free to keep at it, but don’t expect any further responses from me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=46)