# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1021 "2017-11-26T20:22:43Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Are there any reports of a woman objecting, at the time, to Al giving her a fanny pat? Did he ever get his face slapped? I suggest that if a woman really found a fanny pat to be a ‘groping’, Al would have gotten a response-without-thinking face slap, or, at least, a startled “What! Stop That!” > > 10 years later, in the middle of the great ‘women coming forward’ era, reporting a fanny pat is just, to me, a bit lame. I do wonder on exactly what Franken’s “intent” was in the “butt pats”. In all the cases I saw, it was during a photo with him, where they are close together and sometimes hugging. In the thousands of such pictures that he has taken, that in the process his hand may have made contact with a butt or few is actually statistically probable. I remember during a family picture when I was a kid (13 or so), I was standing next to my father, with his arm over my shoulders. When we broke up after the shoot, his hand came down and actually entered the back of my pants for a second before he realized and pulled it away. I don’t think he was sexually harrassing me. I don’t know, he may have been using the pictures as an excuse to grab some ass, in which case, not cool, and I wouldn’t support someone like that. But in the case that these contacts were accidental, I can’t really condemn him. I do lean towards the latter assumption, but am willing to change my mind given new information. And I am not saying that these women weren’t rightly offended by his action, but not every time that one person feels offense does that mean that someone else did something wrong. My hands have made contact with inappropriate places of other’s anatomy on many occasions through accident, it happens. If any of those women came forward to denounce me after I’ve become famous, I don’t know that I would even remember the particular incident. I certainly would not feel that my actions should cause me to resign. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1023 "2017-11-26T20:31:56Z")
reported ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1024 "2017-11-26T20:55:04Z")
But wouldn’t you feel like you could state categorically, that you never intentionally did such a thing? Because Frankin has been reluctant to say that in response to these later accusers. I might be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt against two anonymous accusers over a decade of photo shoots. But he doesn’t seem confident that he didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1025 "2017-11-26T21:04:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I do wonder on exactly what Franken’s “intent” was in the “butt pats”. In all the cases I saw, it was during a photo with him, where they are close together and sometimes hugging. > > In the thousands of such pictures that he has taken, that in the process his hand may have made contact with a butt or few is actually statistically probable. I remember during a family picture when I was a kid (13 or so), I was standing next to my father, with his arm over my shoulders. When we broke up after the shoot, his hand came down and actually entered the back of my pants for a second before he realized and pulled it away. I don’t think he was sexually harrassing me. > … > And I am not saying that these women weren’t rightly offended by his action, but not every time that one person feels offense does that mean that someone else did something wrong. > … All this makes sense. The accusations against Franken are, so far, disturbingly short on support. We have two anonymous women saying he groped their buttocks during photos; neither, so far as I can tell, can offer evidence that she felt at the time that something disturbing had occurred. (That doesn’t mean that it didn’t occur. But evidence would be helpful.) We have a bad-joke photo, and a so-far unsupported accusation of tongue being used during an agreed-upon kiss. Again, we have no evidence so far that the accuser mentioned ‘tongue’ at the time, either to her husband, or to any of the other women on the USO tour. (For example, the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders were fellow-entertainers on that tour. It would have been natural for the accuser to have said ‘watch out for Franken if you do a skit with him–he uses tongue, ick’. That doesn’t appear to have happened.) The strongest evidence that Franken did actually behave inappropriately comes from the third woman who alleges a buttocks-grope during a photo. This woman has put her name on the record, and she has three people–her husband and her parents–willing to testify that she mentioned a butt-grab at the time. No one saw it and no photo or video shows it–but if these three people are willing to say they were told about it about the time it happened, that is strong evidence. A Facebook post that references the incident is further evidence. However, the possibility that the contact between hand and butt was accidental, can’t be ruled out. Your full post, k9bfriender, details some of the ways this can and does happen (I edited it down a bit). What would make a more compelling case against Franken would be a second woman who would go on the record, and who also discussed the butt-grabbing with co-workers, friends, or relatives at the time it happened. Even if no further evidence emerges, it’s still possible that all the allegations are true. But in every case of accusations of sexual misconduct, we look at the evidence presented. We assess its merits. That is a reasonable response. More evidence, and stronger evidence, gives us grounds for calling for action in a way that less evidence-and-weaker evidence does not. (And I continue to call for a full investigation by the Ethics committee.) > [@asahi](#): > > I think Franken ought to consider stepping aside for both ethical and political reasons. If this were a case of Franken not knowing when to turn off his occasionally risque comedic schtick, that might be forgivable. But it does seem with these latest allegations that **his behavior has transgressed the boundaries of propriety** without any sort of reasonable explanation, and he’s not running away from these allegations. I can at least admire the fact that **he’s owning up to his behavior** , but that doesn’t absolve him. … I’m not seeing that the highlighted (by me) bits are supported by evidence. This post appears to contain some assumptions that are poorly substantiated. Franken has been at pains to separate himself from the Trump and Moore style of response–flat-out calling the women liars. He has said things like > [@](#): > > I’m someone who, you know, hugs people. I’ve learned from these stories that in some of these encounters I have crossed the line for some women. [Sen. Al Franken: 'This has been a shock to me' | MPR News](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/26/sen-al-franken-this-has-been-a-shock-to-me) But nothing he’s said equates to an admission that he groped butts or used his tongue. He has apologized in unequivocal terms for the photo. But he hasn’t said ‘I’ve groped women’s buttocks and I apologize for that’ or anything in the same universe as that. So I’m not seeing how we can simply _assume_ that he intentionally groped buttocks or used his tongue during a stage kiss. To me these seem to be allegations that deserve further investigation, rather than established facts on which we can urge action. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1026 "2017-11-26T21:11:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But wouldn’t you feel like you could state categorically, that you never intentionally did such a thing? Because Frankin has been reluctant to say that in response to these later accusers. > > I might be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt against two anonymous accusers over a decade of photo shoots. But he doesn’t seem confident that he didn’t do it. I thought he said that he didn’t remember the incidents. Which means that if he then claimed what he was or was not thinking when he did them, then he would be lying. I would think that not remembering the incidents means that he didn’t think that there was anything noteworthy to remember about them. I’m trying to find the exact text of his response, and failing as it’s all buried under articles and opinion that never actually quote him, but, I seem to remember his saying that he doesn’t remember it, and that it is not the sort of thing that he would do. He isn’t confident that there was no contact, as that is entirely possible, but he seemed confident that he would have had no ill intent. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1027 "2017-11-26T21:19:22Z")
I’m on my phone, but he said something like “I’m a feiendly guy, I like to hug, I recently learned I crossed a line” To me that says "I grab asses, I honestly thought that was an acceptable level of “friendly”, not “I’ve never intentionally touched a woman in her bathing suit area”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1028 "2017-11-26T21:22:22Z")
Well, Franken could have flatly declared that these accusations were totally false and the women were all liars! That’s what a _real_ man would do! That kind of thing goes over real big here in Baja Canada! “Apologize, Hell, get the fuck out of my way!”. But this is not the way of his people, the Minnesota Liberal. Their protest chants go like: “What do we want”? “Justice!” “When do we want it?” “Well, pretty soon if its not too much trouble!” (No, really, you gotta live among these people, or you wouldn’t believe it. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t either! Flagrantly crazy is one thing, but calmly weird is…disturbing.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1029 "2017-11-26T21:23:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’m on my phone, but he said something like “I’m a feiendly guy, I like to hug, I recently learned I crossed a line” > > To me that says "I grab asses, I honestly thought that was an acceptable level of “friendly”, not “I’ve never intentionally touched a woman in her bathing suit area”. Okay, that says to me “I hug, and I recently learned that in the process of hugging, my hand sometimes touched places that were inappropriate.” He would have known that grabbing asses was across the line, so to me, it sounds as though it was the touching of the ass that was unknown to him, not the prohibition on touching of the ass. I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1030 "2017-11-26T21:40:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I thought he said that he didn’t remember the incidents. Which means that if he then claimed what he was or was not thinking when he did them, then he would be lying. > > I would think that not remembering the incidents means that he didn’t think that there was anything noteworthy to remember about them. > > I’m trying to find the exact text of his response, and failing as it’s all buried under articles and opinion that never actually quote him, but, I seem to remember his saying that he doesn’t remember it, and that it is not the sort of thing that he would do. He isn’t confident that there was no contact, as that is entirely possible, but he seemed confident that he would have had no ill intent. I wouldn’t have to remember an incident to be sure that I didn’t cop a feel. And “I learned I crossed a line” doesn’t mean “my hand must have slipped”. If I come home and say “honey, I crossed a line . . .” I am not talking about a total accident. It means I fucked up and did something inappropriate with some level of intentionality. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1031 "2017-11-26T21:45:54Z")
“I learned I crossed a line” is what a genuinely well-intentioned-toward-victims progressive, who does not recall ever intentionally grabbing a woman’s butt, says. “I did used to believe that grabbing a woman’s ass was a friendly gesture she’d enjoy, and now I’ve learned that’s not true” is what a genuinely well-intentioned-toward victims progressive, _who knows himself to have intentionally grabbed butts_, says. And, of course, “These women are liars” is what a right-wing authoritarian who ‘enjoys his prerogatives’ says. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1032 "2017-11-26T22:13:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I wouldn’t have to remember an incident to be sure that I didn’t cop a feel. And “I learned I crossed a line” doesn’t mean “my hand must have slipped”. If I come home and say “honey, I crossed a line . . .” I am not talking about a total accident. It means I fucked up and did something inappropriate with some level of intentionality. UPS recently left a box for the business next to mine, as it was closed. The next day, I took the box over to them. The receptionist thanked me, and grabbed the box, pulling my arm between the box and her chest. In order to remove my hand, it had to brush by her breasts, there was simply no physical way for me to prevent that. I felt a bit weird about it, and maybe even if she were to complain about it later when I am famous, I may say that I learned that I crossed a line, but it was a total accident. When it happened, and even to this point, I do not think I crossed a line, I think I just retrieved my hand. But, if it were to come out that she was offended by it, then I would learn that at that time, at which point I would apologize, and realize that I should no longer hand boxes to women, as there is the possibility that an accident may occur that leaves them offended. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1033 "2017-11-26T23:17:44Z")
He should issue a statement…“I now know that butt-grabbing is wrong, even when committed by me, Al Franken.” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1034 "2017-11-27T00:41:26Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > “I learned I crossed a line” is what a genuinely well-intentioned-toward-victims progressive, who does not recall ever intentionally grabbing a woman’s butt, says. > > “I did used to believe that grabbing a woman’s ass was a friendly gesture she’d enjoy, and now I’ve learned that’s not true” is what a genuinely well-intentioned-toward victims progressive, _who knows himself to have intentionally grabbed butts_, says. > > And, of course, “These women are liars” is what a right-wing authoritarian who ‘enjoys his prerogatives’ says. I don’t agree. To me, a professional wordsmith, who is well aware of every nuance and connotation, does not say “I learned I crossed a line”. He says something like: “I don’t know what happened on these photo shoots. I don’t even remember them. But I know I am not that guy. I have never intentionally done such a thing. Obviously something happened–I don’t know if in the crush I was touching a private area without awareness of what I was doing, or if someone else was taking advantage of the crowd to assault these women, but I do not sexually assault women–and what they are talking about is assault. It appalls me that we live in a world where they felt obligated to down play the severity of what happened to them, where it was impossible to call me out on the spot–and I understand that it truly was impossible. I am horrified that even my campaign was not a safe space for the women of Minnesota. And I will spend the rest of my life working to change that” You say 'I learned I may have crossed a line" when you aren’t 100% positive that there aren’t other shoes about to drop, other photos to come out, other women with similar, even less defensible stories. “I learned I crossed a line” is groundwork for when that comes out, to be able to say “Look, I already admitted I made mistakes” when round two begins. If Trump responded to his accusers with “I may have crossed a line with one or two”, I feel like we’d all see a clear connotation of intentionality there. And Frankin is 100x more careful and aware of his words. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1035 "2017-11-27T01:35:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You say 'I learned I may have crossed a line" when you aren’t 100% positive that there aren’t other shoes about to drop, other photos to come out, other women with similar, even less defensible stories. “I learned I crossed a line” is groundwork for when that comes out, to be able to say “Look, I already admitted I made mistakes” when round two begins. … You have every right to your opinion. But I doubt that most English speakers would agree that the meaning of “I learned I may have crossed a line” is as clear-cut and unambiguous–not to mention specific!–as you claim. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1036 "2017-11-27T01:44:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Never suggested it had, or would. Merely observing a trend. It was the lead story on ABC National News tonight. That’s not what I’d call a trend towards yesterday’s news. YMMV. It would not surprise me if Franken is asked about this every time he appears in public. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1037 "2017-11-27T08:16:43Z")
Feminist here. I don’t believe Franken guilty of anything but the bad-taste fake grope photo, and possibly a slobbery kiss that may have been intended to be humorous in the context of the skit anyway. Ass-grabbing during a public hug in front of an ENTIRE STATE FAIR? No. I don’t buy it. I call bullshit. I’ve followed Franken’s career for the past twenty years, I’ve read his books, I’ve heard/seen his interviews, I’ve seen the legislation he participates in sponsoring, I know his ideals, I know where his heart lies, and I know his intelligence. He’s just too smart for such a cheap move. I just. Don’t. Believe. It. I’m #listentowomen. I’m not #believeallwomenjustbecausetheyhaveovarieslikeIdo. Not every accusation is true. I’m more and more alarmed by the immediate assumption of guilt just because November is now Grope Awareness Month. We have _waaaaay_ overcorrected, and that scares me because it’s now the easiest thing in the world to completely destroy a person’s life with a single unproven accusation. Did he place a hand on some woman’s hip and she thought it was a butt-grab? Sure, I can believe it. Did he purposely choose to grope a woman’s ass in front of a husband and/or thousands of other people at a state fair or other public venue? And _none_ of these alleged besmirched, outraged women so much as backed or jumped away? They just smiled prettily for the camera? Gimme a break. There are _many_ reasons such stories would be untrue. 1. They’re honest misinterpretations. (See above mis-aimed hand-on-hip scenario, which could have turned into a hand-on-ass story.) 2. The accusers are drama queens jumping at the chance to be the belles of the ball if only in their safe little group of Facebook friends. 3. They’re politically motivated. That’s the one that feels likely to me. This political hand grenade has been perfectly targeted at Franken–who, _quel surprise_, is one of the harshest, most effective questioners of Sessions et al. in the Russia probe, and–even _queller suprise_ (yes I know that’s not real French!) has even been mentioned as a 2020 Presidential contender. I think Franken’s wording is very careful. He’s saying he doesn’t remember but respects their feelings and apologizes for supposedly inducing them is the most tactful way he could respond. I translate it this way: “These women are fucking liars that lie, but I’m not gonna be a Trump or Moore and throw them to the hounds. Not only will it just make me look bad, but it’ll perpetuate the idea that _no_ women should be listened to, and I am a firm believer in respecting women’s experiences. So let’s go through with the investigation and put these accusers under oath. I am not a quitter and I will continue to represent Minnesotans as best as I can, and for as long as they’ll have me.” Having said all this, I am ready to be proven wrong. I’m not afraid of changing my mind should actual evidence show up. (And no, someone’s allegedly contemporaneous Facebook posts don’t count. You can backdate FB posts–I just took a post I made earlier this week and changed the date to November 24, 2007. Did a refresh and boom, it’s now on my timeline as if I’d posted it ten years ago. Amazing how I predicted Trump’s ascent to power way back in 2007, huh?) Meanwhile, I hope Al remains staunch. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1038 "2017-11-27T08:23:09Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Feminist here. I don’t believe Franken guilty of anything but the bad-taste fake grope photo, and possibly a slobbery kiss that may have been intended to be humorous in the context of the skit anyway. > > Ass-grabbing during a public hug in front of an ENTIRE STATE FAIR? No. I don’t buy it. I call bullshit. I’ve followed Franken’s career for the past twenty years, I’ve read his books, I’ve heard/seen his interviews, I’ve seen the legislation he participates in sponsoring, I know his ideals, I know where his heart lies, and I know his intelligence. He’s just too smart for such a cheap move. I just. Don’t. Believe. It. > > I’m #listentowomen. I’m not #believeallwomenjustbecausetheyhaveovarieslikeIdo. Not every accusation is true. I’m more and more alarmed by the immediate assumption of guilt just because November is now Grope Awareness Month. We have _waaaaay_ overcorrected, and that scares me because it’s now the easiest thing in the world to completely destroy a person’s life with a single unproven accusation. > > Did he place a hand on some woman’s hip and she thought it was a butt-grab? Sure, I can believe it. Did he purposely choose to grope a woman’s ass in front of a husband and/or thousands of other people at a state fair or other public venue? And _none_ of these alleged besmirched, outraged women so much as backed or jumped away? They just smiled prettily for the camera? Gimme a break. > > There are _many_ reasons such stories would be untrue. > > 1. They’re honest misinterpretations. (See above mis-aimed hand-on-hip scenario, which could have turned into a hand-on-ass story.) > > 2. The accusers are drama queens jumping at the chance to be the belles of the ball if only in their safe little group of Facebook friends. > > 3. They’re politically motivated. > > That’s the one that feels likely to me. This political hand grenade has been perfectly targeted at Franken–who, _quel surprise_, is one of the harshest, most effective questioners of Sessions et al. in the Russia probe, and–even _queller suprise_ (yes I know that’s not real French!) has even been mentioned as a 2020 Presidential contender. > > I think Franken’s wording is very careful. He’s saying he doesn’t remember but respects their feelings and apologizes for supposedly inducing them is the most tactful way he could respond. I translate it this way: > > “These women are fucking liars that lie, but I’m not gonna be a Trump or Moore and throw them to the hounds. Not only will it just make me look bad, but it’ll perpetuate the idea that _no_ women should be listened to, and I am a firm believer in respecting women’s experiences. So let’s go through with the investigation and put these accusers under oath. I am not a quitter and I will continue to represent Minnesotans as best as I can, and for as long as they’ll have me.” > > Having said all this, I am ready to be proven wrong. I’m not afraid of changing my mind should actual evidence show up. > > (And no, someone’s allegedly contemporaneous Facebook posts don’t count. You can backdate FB posts–I just took a post I made earlier this week and changed the date to November 24, 2007. Did a refresh and boom, it’s now on my timeline as if I’d posted it ten years ago. Amazing how I predicted Trump’s ascent to power way back in 2007, huh?) > > Meanwhile, I hope Al remains staunch. If you won’t accept the evidence against Franken, how do you feel about the evidence against Moore or Trump? Rock solid? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1039 "2017-11-27T14:12:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Meanwhile there’s Joe Barten. Joe Barton is an example of the societal double-standard, which holds men responsible in situations where women are considered victims. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I2) Political. Okay, there are like five bajillion standards here. Nevertheless, within politics, the statute of limitations, court precedents, and other legal guidelines are not relevant. The legal statute of limitations wouldn’t apply. But IMO if there are allegations of impropriety against someone, there’s a huge difference between recent allegations and decades-old allegations. People change. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1040 "2017-11-27T16:22:56Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Feminist here. I don’t believe Franken guilty of anything but the bad-taste fake grope photo, and possibly a slobbery kiss that may have been intended to be humorous in the context of the skit anyway. > > Ass-grabbing during a public hug in front of an ENTIRE STATE FAIR? No. I don’t buy it. I call bullshit. I’ve followed Franken’s career for the past twenty years, I’ve read his books, I’ve heard/seen his interviews, I’ve seen the legislation he participates in sponsoring, I know his ideals, I know where his heart lies, and I know his intelligence. He’s just too smart for such a cheap move. I just. Don’t. Believe. It. He may or may not have done some of what he was accused of. I believe in needing evidence. > [@](#): > > I’m #listentowomen. I’m not #believeallwomenjustbecausetheyhaveovarieslikeIdo. Not every accusation is true. I’m more and more alarmed by the immediate assumption of guilt just because November is now Grope Awareness Month. We have _waaaaay_ overcorrected, and that scares me because it’s now the easiest thing in the world to completely destroy a person’s life with a single unproven accusation. Well said if consistently applied. Your sentiment will probably get you pitted though as it’s borderline taboo. > [@](#): > > Did he place a hand on some woman’s hip and she thought it was a butt-grab? Sure, I can believe it. Did he purposely choose to grope a woman’s ass in front of a husband and/or thousands of other people at a state fair or other public venue? And _none_ of these alleged besmirched, outraged women so much as backed or jumped away? They just smiled prettily for the camera? Gimme a break. > > There are _many_ reasons such stories would be untrue. > > 1. They’re honest misinterpretations. (See above mis-aimed hand-on-hip scenario, which could have turned into a hand-on-ass story.) > > 2. The accusers are drama queens jumping at the chance to be the belles of the ball if only in their safe little group of Facebook friends. > > 3. They’re politically motivated. > > That’s the one that feels likely to me. This political hand grenade has been perfectly targeted at Franken–who, _quel surprise_, is one of the harshest, most effective questioners of Sessions et al. in the Russia probe, and–even _queller suprise_ (yes I know that’s not real French!) has even been mentioned as a 2020 Presidential contender. > > I think Franken’s wording is very careful. He’s saying he doesn’t remember but respects their feelings and apologizes for supposedly inducing them is the most tactful way he could respond. I translate it this way: > > “These women are fucking liars that lie, but I’m not gonna be a Trump or Moore and throw them to the hounds. Not only will it just make me look bad, but it’ll perpetuate the idea that _no_ women should be listened to, and I am a firm believer in respecting women’s experiences. So let’s go through with the investigation and put these accusers under oath. I am not a quitter and I will continue to represent Minnesotans as best as I can, and for as long as they’ll have me.” > > Having said all this, I am ready to be proven wrong. I’m not afraid of changing my mind should actual evidence show up. > > (And no, someone’s allegedly contemporaneous Facebook posts don’t count. You can backdate FB posts–I just took a post I made earlier this week and changed the date to November 24, 2007. Did a refresh and boom, it’s now on my timeline as if I’d posted it ten years ago. Amazing how I predicted Trump’s ascent to power way back in 2007, huh?) > > Meanwhile, I hope Al remains staunch. It is complex. I wonder how people will respond to your nuanced view. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1041 "2017-11-27T16:40:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Joe Barton is an example of the societal double-standard, which holds men responsible in situations where women are considered victims. Absolutely. The fact that he apologized for being the victim of revenge porn, and that the commentary has tended to be snarky commentary on his appearance, is incredibly shitty. I find his politics abhorrent, but let’s be clear: everything that’s come out here suggests he’s the victim of a criminal act by his ex. > [@](#): > > The legal statute of limitations wouldn’t apply. But IMO if there are allegations of impropriety against someone, there’s a huge difference between recent allegations and decades-old allegations. People change. Fair point, and I agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=53)