# Now, Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770 "2017-11-16T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1102 "2017-11-30T18:24:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_Billy_Bush_recording#Republican_Party) Those were all about the Access Hollywood tape, right? As opposed to the actual allegations of sexual assault from several named women? For the latter, IIRC, the Republican leadership pretty much said nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1103 "2017-11-30T18:27:25Z")
Sorry, I had those confused. My bad. I don’t know anything about the reaction to the assault allegations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1104 "2017-11-30T18:30:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Sorry, I had those confused. My bad. > > I don’t know anything about the reaction to the assault allegations. No problem. A few minutes of google doesn’t really show me any reactions from Republican leaders (to the allegations of sexual assault by several women against Trump) beyond the “wait and see” or “innocent until proven guilty” or equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1105 "2017-11-30T18:35:00Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > God, I hope not. Especially considering the Franken allegations are not even in the same ballpark as what Conyers did. Maybe, but he’s now accused of groping an army vet. Game over, Al. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1106 "2017-11-30T18:41:42Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Is there an explanation of any kind on offer about why Trump remains relatively immune from these allegations to date? Because the people who voted for Trump don’t care as much about his actual behavior as a person; it would only matter if he were trying to have gay sex with other men in an airport bathroom (emphasis on gay). The so-called evangelicals don’t even believe in Jesus, the God of love; the believe in whatever God that makes them wealthier and superior to others. Dems are doing the right thing, but I can’t help but worry that doing the right thing is a political trap. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1107 "2017-11-30T18:42:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Is there an explanation of any kind on offer about why Trump remains relatively immune from these allegations to date? Trump denied the allegations, called the women who accused him liars, and threatened to sue them. Franken admitted to inappropriate behavior, accepted the view of women who were offended by his actions (even if unintentional) and apologized. That’s the difference that I (and SHS) see. It does seem as though owning up to and apologizing for mistakes and offenses is what gets you damned, while furthering the harm to the women you may have offended with threats and by casting aspersions upon their character gets you elected. > [@Pantastic](#): > > If a guy grabbed another guy’s butt during a photo shoot, would you dismiss it as part of his ‘hugging style’? Do you think anyone would but the story? Actually, yeah, if a guy comes forward saying the Franken grabbed his butt, then that would be, IMO, evidence of lack of intent. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1108 "2017-11-30T18:42:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes actually. Several studies have attested that men and women perceive [actions differently](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2744967/) with men especially being less [likely to perceive an action](https://schoolworkhelper.net/sexual-harassment-malefemale-differences-in-perceptions/) as threatening. No, actually, neither one of your studies supports the absurd contention that women are not qualified to determine whether a man is groping their body. The first one actually says that men are MORE LIKELY to interpret an action as sexual “Men appear to interpret people’s behaviors more sexually than do women,” which contradicts the (again, absurd) premise that women can’t tell when someone gropes their body - according to the first study, women are less likely to interpret someone’s behavior as sexual. The second study appears to only be discussing whether men perceive women as more threatening than women perceive men, it doesn’t actually address examine the question of qualification for determining if a but/boob has been grabbed. Further, neither study actually studied male-male contact and how it’s interpreted - and the example I gave involves male-male contact, not male-female contact. The first study explicitly only looks at male-female conduct, while the second only discusses it (and doesn’t appear to have a link to a single study who’s methodology I could look at). I specifically used a male-male interaction because, as much as sexual harassment defenders pretend otherwise, it’s pretty clear that most of these harassing behaviors would be very much perceived as sexual by a man if they were initiated by another man who they believed was interested in men. > [@](#): > > There is a good chance that absent additional context, such an action might be perceived as being playful, friendly or at worst intending to kid or annoy. I will note that none of your perceptions actually involve the guy thinking the action is not unwanted sexual touch, they involve him thinking that it’s a joke, no big deal, or intended to hurt him but not actually provide sexual gratification. None of those explanations actually makes an action not sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1109 "2017-11-30T18:44:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Actually, yeah, if a guy comes forward saying the Franken grabbed his butt, then that would be, IMO, evidence of lack of intent. You’re seriously arguing that if we got another witness to bad behavior, that you’d consider it evidence that the person committing bad behavior didn’t intend to commit the behavior? Is this opposite day or something? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1110 "2017-11-30T18:49:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Several years ago I attempted to catch a departing female colleague’s attention by touching her shoulder, she turned around as my arm was extending and I… accidentally basically ended up administering a boob slap\*. Mumbled a “sorry” and We.Never.Spoke.Of.It.Again. > > Until the last few days as these allegations have been piling up in the media about various men. I asked her about it (we have remained friends) and how could she be so sure it was actually an accident. Her answer was that my face was one of mortified disbelief. According to her women can always tell, since the “accident” guys typically instantly seize up and become awkward. Not sure how accurate that is though since its based on a subjective assessment. > > \*Apparently I ended up causing a bruise. ☹ When I was a cook, I worked on a fairly cramped space. I was usually busy, and didn’t actually have time to look where I was reaching, when I was reaching for plateware. One day, I was reaching behind me for a rarebit, and instead, I grabbed another cook by the penis. Since I was reaching to grab something, my hand wrapped right around it before I realized what I was grabbing. I suppose he could have reported me for sexual harassment, but he realized that I was completely not intending to go there. > [@Pantastic](#): > > You’re seriously arguing that if we got another witness to bad behavior, that you’d consider it evidence that the person committing bad behavior didn’t intend to commit the behavior? Is this opposite day or something? No, that is not what I am arguing. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1111 "2017-11-30T18:52:07Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > … if he were trying to have gay sex with other men in an airport bathroom (emphasis on gay)… … You may be on to something there. Maybe not all sex between two guys would _necessarily_ be “gay sex”. “Sure, he’s a guy, and I’m a guy. But I’m not gay, I’m a _Republican_, and twenty bucks is twenty bucks!”. Dem guy can go with “Totally not gay, just trying to gain a better understanding and appreciation for the female experience!”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1112 "2017-11-30T18:57:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Because the people who voted for Trump don’t care as much about his actual behavior as a person; it would only matter if he were trying to have gay sex with other men in an airport bathroom (emphasis on gay). The so-called evangelicals don’t even believe in Jesus, the God of love; the believe in whatever God that makes them wealthier and superior to others. Dems are doing the right thing, but I can’t help but worry that doing the right thing is a political trap. IMHO, if Franken doesn’t resign and runs again, he will most likely win. If Conyers doesn’t resign and runs again he will almost certainly win. In a different era (less sensitivity, possibly, but much more shocking allegations) [Gerry Studds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Studds) didn’t resign and ran again and won. There’s very little discernible difference between Trump voters and others in this regard. The way these things work is that the guy himself has very little incentive to resign, if he thinks he can win. He loses his job (or potential job) and also has his reputation cemented as a bad guy in the public eye with no chance for redemption. But the party leaders have their eyes on the bigger picture, and they are sensitive to damage to the broader brand. So they will frequently try to pressure the guy out. But how much leverage they have can vary a lot. In the case of a mainstream guy who owes his position to party leadership, and relies on their ongoing support, that can be a lot. In the case of an outsider insurgent, who was opposed by the party all along and got to where he was by overcoming them, then there’s very little they can do. The latter category would include Trump and Roy Moore. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1113 "2017-11-30T19:03:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When I was a cook, I worked on a fairly cramped space. I was usually busy, and didn’t actually have time to look where I was reaching, when I was reaching for plateware. > > One day, I was reaching behind me for a rarebit, and instead, I grabbed another cook by the penis. Since I was reaching to grab something, my hand wrapped right around it before I realized what I was grabbing. > I suppose he could have reported me for sexual harassment, but he realized that I was completely not intending to go there. Possibly may also have anticipated some questions as to why his penis was hanging out. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1114 "2017-11-30T19:07:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > One day, I was reaching behind me for a rarebit, and instead, I grabbed another cook by the penis. Since I was reaching to grab something, my hand wrapped right around it before I realized what I was grabbing Something is missing in this story. Maybe it’s pants. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1115 "2017-11-30T19:11:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think I probably misunderstood. Are you saying that the more women that say he groped them during a photo, the more you believe they’re all just misunderstanding innocent acts by Franken? Like, if it was one or two, you’d find that credible, but if it’s a dozen, they’re all probably wrong? As I get more information I see how it is more plausible the problem here is not a serial groper, but a combination of hugging style, not knowing the person you’re taking a pic with particularly well, rushed circumstances, and not wanting to make a scene over something that might seem small for Franken, and embarrassing for the woman in question. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some men like to grope surreptitiously when they get a chance. Is that really harder to believe than that multiple women are 100% wrong about whether or not they were groped? > > Your attitude is crazy (and harmful), IMO. People tend to know when they were touched inappropriately. Maybe very occasionally they misinterpret something… but multiple women, all of whom at the time told friends and family that they were groped? That seems far less likely than just that Franken likes to grope when he thinks he can get away with it. I am sure there are men who grope surreptitiously. The Franken accusers are 0% wrong they got their boobs or their butts touched, but the motivation they’ve ascribed to it is wrong. Those who claim Franken is surreptitiously groping, have the right to their opinion, but they’re 100% wrong in my opinion. Why? The more stories I read about this, the more they just seem like accidents of timing, body positioning, familiarity, and the way Franken likes to position himself for a photo. He needs to back off because what he thinks is warm is leading to people feeling uncomfortable around him. I think the main thing I’ve learned from this is to keep a steady drip-drip of accusations going during an election. Moore is going back up in the polls because the bombshell mall hunter accusations have passed, but Franken is still reviled for being close to people in pictures. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1116 "2017-11-30T19:11:57Z")
Anybody giving any thought to the standards of evidence we are cruising towards here? Are we going to settle on a standard of “If a woman says so, it’s true, and he must resign”? That doesn’t worry anybody else? That the power-mad and scruple-free will use this? We’re already at public figures being fired upon accusation, period. We gonna settle on that, as the standard going forward? Nobody sees any problem with that? Nancy Pelosi is probably safe. For now. Right now, only thing I can see is trial by election. She says this, he says that, and the voter decides. Got a better idea, I am ready to listen. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1117 "2017-11-30T19:15:13Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Possibly may also have anticipated some questions as to why his penis was hanging out. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Something is missing in this story. > > Maybe it’s pants. There was pant fabric between hand and penis, but if you have ever worn chef pants, you would see that they are actually pretty loose and thin fabric. Not really a barrier. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1118 "2017-11-30T19:17:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Anybody giving any thought to the standards of evidence we are cruising towards here? Are we going to settle on a standard of “If a woman says so, it’s true, and he must resign”? > > That doesn’t worry anybody else? That the power-mad and scruple-free will use this? We’re already at public figures being fired upon accusation, period. We gonna settle on that, as the standard going forward? Nobody sees any problem with that? Nancy Pelosi is probably safe. For now. > > Right now, only thing I can see is trial by election. She says this, he says that, and the voter decides. Got a better idea, I am ready to listen. What we should get out of this sort of situation is men realizing that they should be treating women as people, rather than as objects that exist only for their pleasure. What I fear we get out of this situation is that men realize they should be treating women as minefields, rather than people. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1119 "2017-11-30T19:21:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Anybody giving any thought to the standards of evidence we are cruising towards here? Are we going to settle on a standard of “If a woman says so, it’s true, and he must resign”? > > That doesn’t worry anybody else? That the power-mad and scruple-free will use this? We’re already at public figures being fired upon accusation, period. We gonna settle on that, as the standard going forward? Nobody sees any problem with that? Nancy Pelosi is probably safe. For now. > > Right now, only thing I can see is trial by election. She says this, he says that, and the voter decides. Got a better idea, I am ready to listen. Cite where people have been fired due to accusations alone. No investigation by journalists? No employer investigations? No corroboration by other victims or witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1120 "2017-11-30T19:23:56Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If a guy grabbed another guy’s butt during a photo shoot, would you dismiss it as part of his ‘hugging style’? Do you think anyone would but the story? The idea that a whole group of women aren’t qualified to determine if someone is putting their hands on inappropriate areas of their body is just completely out to lunch, and the idea that a man in his 50s somehow has spent decades unintentionally groping people is just absurd. Yeah, a gangly teenager might screw up and grab a boob by mistake during a photo, but once you’re approaching the half-century mark I think you’ve gotten a grip (no pun intended) on whether you are grabbing a boob or butt. Only teenagers find themselves in ambiguous potentially confusing circumstances, huh?: I am 43 and rubbed my hand across two different young women’s boobs in the last year. Both times the “victims” were holding my infant, they were returning the infant to me. I waited for them to stretch their arms out before getting my hands around her, but they didn’t, and because the thought of my daughter being dropped on the cement took precedence over everything, I got my hand in between her and the young women’s breast and picked up my daughter. – back to Franken and your hyperbole: This is 4 women out of 1000s of people. He hasn’t done this over decades, he’s done this while running for office or spending a lot of time with people on a USO tour. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770/1121 "2017-11-30T19:28:15Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am sure there are men who grope surreptitiously. The Franken accusers are 0% wrong they got their boobs or their butts touched, but the motivation they’ve ascribed to it is wrong. Those who claim Franken is surreptitiously groping, have the right to their opinion, but they’re 100% wrong in my opinion. Why? The more stories I read about this, the more they just seem like accidents of timing, body positioning, familiarity, and the way Franken likes to position himself for a photo. By what basis is this more likely than that Franken is one of those who likes to grope? Considering that he took a picture groping (or pretending to grope) a sleeping Leeane Tweeden, that seems to me by far more likely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/now-al-franken/801770.md?page=57)